Assessing the case against W.H.Bury

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  • Wyatt Earp
    Detective
    • Feb 2012
    • 447

    #106
    Another way to put it is this: if you accept that the Goulston Street graffito was the work of the Ripper, as many here do, then the fact that it was described as having been written in a schoolboy hand has to be considered something of an oddity. I don't think many here believe the Ripper to have been a schoolboy. Bury and his capacity for "several hands" explains that oddity.
    “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

    William Bury, Victorian Murderer
    http://www.williambury.org

    Comment

    • The Grave Maurice
      Premium Member
      • Feb 2008
      • 1674

      #107
      Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
      I don't think many here believe the Ripper to have been a schoolboy.
      True. The phrase was more likely meant to refer to the style of the writing rather than the age of the writer.

      Comment

      • Wyatt Earp
        Detective
        • Feb 2012
        • 447

        #108
        Originally posted by The Grave Maurice View Post
        The phrase was more likely meant to refer to the style of the writing rather than the age of the writer.
        Yes, that's right. One could argue that any given suspect might have faked the style of handwriting, but that would be less easy to do for a suspect who had not previously demonstrated this behavior. Or one would need to explain how a given suspect's handwriting might have been underdeveloped. Or of course one could try to minimize or dismiss the significance of the description itself.

        But getting back to Bury, it's worth mentioning that there is one misspelled word in his forged letter ("Ogilvy" for Ogilvie), in the Princes Street chalkings ("seller" for cellar) and in the Goulston Street graffito ("Juwes" for Jews). If one wanted to assign all of these to Bury, one could suggest that he wasn't a very good speller, or one could suggest that deliberately misspelling a word was a behavioral tic of his.
        “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

        William Bury, Victorian Murderer
        http://www.williambury.org

        Comment

        • Wyatt Earp
          Detective
          • Feb 2012
          • 447

          #109
          Just a quick follow-up on the spelling issue. On pages 64 and 65 of Macpherson and on page 297 of the 2009 Beadle book the text of other letters Bury wrote is given. I do not see a single spelling mistake. This is not a guy who would have spelled cellar as "seller" unless he was doing it deliberately.
          “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

          William Bury, Victorian Murderer
          http://www.williambury.org

          Comment

          • Wyatt Earp
            Detective
            • Feb 2012
            • 447

            #110
            Originally posted by Lechmere View Post
            I think Bury must have done it, but it hardly makes him Jack the Ripper.
            When he arrived in Scotland he and his wife were 'ragged' by Dundonians along the lines of 'oh you're from the East End, that must mean you know Jack the Ripper'. The wife laughed it off - probably a tiresome and commonplace jibe that people from the East End had to put up at the time. Bury shrank away. He already had her coffin ready by then though.
            I think the only evidence that Bury drank in Whitechapel comes from Scottish papers (eg one from Aberdeen I think). In my opinion when they said this it really meant 'East End'. The nuances of which district was which would have been beyond them. To them, in the aftermath of the Ripper publicity and with a murderer in Scotland who had just arrived from the East End, it would be natural to say he drank in Whitechapel (meaning the East End) when really the only evidence was that he went out late drinking - more likely just in Bow (or Bromley-by-Bow).
            Bury was clearly an unpleasant character but also an idiot and a loser. He hatched the most stupid premeditated murder I have ever read about. He probably self importantly fantasised that he was a ripper, hence the minor stabs at his wife's abdomen. And hence the scrawling, and possibly hence his cryptic remarks to the hangman (if true).
            I think that Bury's local "notoriety" because of his association with the East End can be the only real explanation of schoolboy authorship of the chalkings, as we know the chalkings were not made in the aftermath of his arrest (the chalkings were present when police first examined his residence per Beadle, 2009, p.247-8). However this notoriety could also be an explanation for Bury's own authorship of the chalkings. Perhaps he had a problem with kids snooping around out back and he decided to chalk these messages there to scare them off. He wouldn't have wanted to write them in his own hand as this would have been self-incriminating. This way if he was ever confronted about the messages he could always say "Oh, there must have been some kids goofing around out back." If you believe that Bury chalked the messages, I do not think it is necessary to view them as some sort of fantasy or confession.
            “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

            William Bury, Victorian Murderer
            http://www.williambury.org

            Comment

            • Wyatt Earp
              Detective
              • Feb 2012
              • 447

              #111
              Here is an additional thought about this. During Bury's second week at Princes Street, in the period immediately following, in Macpherson's opinion, his murder of Ellen, there were some changes at his residence. Whereas before he had left the front door open, he now "always took the precaution of closing it" (p. 79) and "the blind was drawn down over the Burys' back window...and remained drawn all week" (p. 80). I think this supports the idea that Bury chalked the messages in order to scare people off, as it could have been part of this larger effort to keep people away from the residence.
              “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

              William Bury, Victorian Murderer
              http://www.williambury.org

              Comment

              • Ashkenaz
                Detective
                • Sep 2008
                • 178

                #112
                Originally posted by johns View Post
                The Dundee flat graffiti as reproduced in both Macpherson and Beadle's books...

                I would suggest that the "back of this door" graffiti looks to be in a more mature hand than the "sellar" graffiti..
                As the police said, it's likely Scottish youngsters poking fun as the new neigbours with their strange English accents
                It was Bury whodunnit. The black eyed scoundrel.

                The yam yams are the men, who won't be blamed for nothing..

                Comment

                • John Wheat
                  Assistant Commissioner
                  • Jul 2008
                  • 3348

                  #113
                  I think it's odds on Bury wrote both of the chalk messages.

                  Comment

                  • Abby Normal
                    Commissioner
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 11905

                    #114
                    Originally posted by Ashkenaz View Post
                    As the police said, it's likely Scottish youngsters poking fun as the new neigbours with their strange English accents
                    This is probably correct
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment

                    • Cogidubnus
                      Assistant Commissioner
                      • Feb 2012
                      • 3266

                      #115
                      There's no evidence at all that either William or Ellen wrote either grafitto...as the door concerned was publicly accessible at the rear of the building, the odds are, that, as suggested by the local press, it was a comment, (either pre or post mortem) by the local youth who were simply linking with the London connection...

                      All the best

                      Dave
                      Last edited by Cogidubnus; 08-04-2014, 03:16 PM. Reason: clarification

                      Comment

                      • John Wheat
                        Assistant Commissioner
                        • Jul 2008
                        • 3348

                        #116
                        Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
                        There's no evidence at all that either William or Ellen wrote either grafitto...as the door concerned was publicly accessible at the rear of the building, the odds are, that, as suggested by the local press, it was a comment, (either pre or post mortem) by the local youth who were simply linking with the London connection...
                        To Dave

                        There's also no evidence to suggest the chalk messages were written by the local children. Also one of the chalk messages was written inside the residence which the children would have had no access too. Plus Bury wouldn't have talked with a London accent and why would the children know he'd been in London?

                        Cheers John

                        Comment

                        • Cogidubnus
                          Assistant Commissioner
                          • Feb 2012
                          • 3266

                          #117
                          Hi John

                          There's also no evidence to suggest the chalk messages were written by the local children.
                          But the local police thought so....and so did the local paper, the Courier, (who you'd not normally expect to play down the matter)...

                          Also one of the chalk messages was written inside the residence which the children would have had no access too
                          The first message was written on the cellar door, the second was within at the turn of the stair leading to the ash pit...unless you know for a fact that the cellar door was locked, (to stop people stealing the ash perhaps?) then children might well have had access...

                          Plus Bury wouldn't have talked with a London accent and why would the children know he'd been in London?
                          The Bury's made no secret of where they'd come from...and in those distant days of little other outside amusement, knowing all about your neighbours came as second nature...I expect the entire neighbourhood knew where they'd come from within days (if not hours) of their arrival...

                          All the best

                          Dave

                          Comment

                          • John Wheat
                            Assistant Commissioner
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 3348

                            #118
                            Hello Dave

                            Why would the local children write the chalk messages? Just because Bury had come from London doesn't really cut it. Also why would the local children have access to Bury's cellar? Considering Bury murdered his wife in the residence I doubt Bury would leave his cellar unlocked for people to poke around or listen to what was going off in the flat.

                            Cheers John

                            Comment

                            • Cogidubnus
                              Assistant Commissioner
                              • Feb 2012
                              • 3266

                              #119
                              Hi John

                              So far as I'm aware this was an "outside back cellar" totally unconnected with the flat...probably separated by a solid concrete floor...during my childhood both my grandparents and my Uncle/Aunt lived in buildings with a similar arrangement...and the cellar doors were always left unlocked...simply because there was little (if anything, apart from possibly a few gardening bits and pieces) of value left in there...

                              The front cellar was different because there was a coal chute there (for deliveries) plus access to the house...but I don't think the Bury's had a front cellar...at least it's not mentioned...

                              Why wouldn't the local kids write messages? They had no TV, no Playstations or X-boxes, no smartphones...so to amuse themselves they explored, and pretended, and played at adventures, and dared each other to do slightly iffy things, just like kids always have (at least up to my days anyway!)...and if there were newly-arrived folk from such an exotic place as London, where exciting things were happening, then the odds were they'd latch onto this straightaway...

                              All the best

                              Dave

                              Comment

                              • John Wheat
                                Assistant Commissioner
                                • Jul 2008
                                • 3348

                                #120
                                So far as I'm aware this was an "outside back cellar" totally unconnected with the flat...probably separated by a solid concrete floor...Why wouldn't the local kids write messages? They had no TV, no Playstations or X-boxes, no smartphones...so to amuse themselves they explored, and pretended, and played at adventures, and dared each other to do slightly iffy things, just like kids always have (at least up to my days anyway!)...and if there were newly-arrived folk from such an exotic place as London, where exciting things were happening, then the odds were they'd latch onto this straightaway...

                                Hello Dave

                                I wasn't aware the Bury's cellar was an 'outside back cellar. Fair points about the kids. I still believe Bury wrote both the messages though.

                                Cheers John

                                Comment

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