Assessing the case against W.H.Bury

[John Bennett]

But then; neither can I see 'Jack the Ripper' giving "even a moment's consideration" to the history of Flower & Dean Street!

Yes, I'm sure he couldn't have given a toss.

[Jon Guy]

Then again, someone who may strut confidently around his own patch, may get a good kicking in another area.

Does anybody here think that the Ripper (whether they were Bury or not) gave even a moment's consideration to parish boundaries or the exact definition of the area they committed the murders in?

I can't see it myself.

I can't either!

But then; neither can I see 'Jack the Ripper' giving "even a moment's consideration" to the history of Flower & Dean Street!

[babybird67]

actually yes John

I think he took a tape measure and a pedometer with him, and should a parish fall an inch outside of his remit, he would just turn back and go home and read a good book.

[John Bennett]

Can I just put forward a proposition?

Much of this seems to be focusing on parish boundaries and definitions thereof. Perhaps I should post this on the 'Geo-spacial analysis thread', but here goes:

Does anybody here think that the Ripper (whether they were Bury or not) gave even a moment's consideration to parish boundaries or the exact definition of the area they committed the murders in?

I can't see it myself.

[dixon9]

thanks for all your help people (much needed) so a walk from most of the murder scenes to WHB lodgings would prob be between 40mins to one hour?

Thanks for the lesson in London's political geography! To whom shall I write the cheque?

Make it out to "The Society of People Who've Actually Lived There".

And to think that I, having never actually lived in London, had the audacity to challenge the infinite wisdom of 'Sam Flynn'.

I'll make you a wager, Gareth. I'll bet you, that at least half of the people living in Durward Street today, would not recognize the street-name 'Buck's Row'.

I'm taking a chance, aren't I! After all, those people actually live in London!

Not actually sure what you are talking about here. But you seem to question Sam Flynn's geography which I can verify is entirely correct.

But in the context of an 1888 murder mystery; it is entirely incorrect!

That's Gunthorpe Street …

That's Durward Street …

That's Henriques Street …

That's Duval Street … actually … That's whatever-the-hell the name of that service road is …

We don't go 'round saying:

- that Martha Tabram was murdered in 'Gunthorpe Street'
- that Polly Nichols was murdered in 'Durward Street'
- that Elizabeth Stride was murdered in 'Henriques Street'
- or, that Mary Jane Kelly was murdered in 'whatever-the-hell the name of that service road is'

And accordingly, we shouldn't go 'round saying:

- that William Bury's Quickett Street, Blackthorn Street, Swaton Road and Spanby Road addresses were in 'Bromley-by-Bow'.

They were each in the Parish of Bromley St. Leonard: Colloquially abbreviated in 1888, as 'Bromley'.

To be fair: The colloquial reference 'Bromley-by-Bow' was used occasionally, during the period in question. I have, in fact, seen instances of its use in 1881 and 1891 census 'enumerations'. Interestingly; in many of those instances, the reference 'Bromley-by-Bow' was 'lined-through' and replaced with either 'Bromley' or 'Bromley St. Leonard'.

As the Municipal Borough of Bromley, County of Kent did not become the London Borough of Bromley until 1965; use of the reference 'Bromley-by-Bow' was, until that point in time, totally unnecessary and entirely colloquial in those instances, in which it did 'emerge'.

Where Gareth (a.k.a. 'Sam Flynn') has actually faltered, is not in his use of the reference 'Bromley-by-Bow'; but in his assumptions that use of the reference 'Bow', in this instance, is even remotely acceptable, and that use of the reference 'Bromley' is somehow incorrect, and for that matter, an "evil".

He is plainly and simply wrong!

I think what Blue is getting at is that Bromley-by-Bow is a modern usage.

Thank you, Roy!


Ancient Parochial Establishment of East London (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

- Yellow: The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- Orange: The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
- Red: The Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney
- Green: The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- Purple: The City of London
- Gold: The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
- Blue: The Precinct of the Priory of St. Mary without Bishopsgate (St. Mary Spital)
- Green: The Precinct of the Priory of the Holy Trinity (Aldgate) (County of Middlesex)

The Ancient Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney (Red) was divided, between the years 1329 and 1867, into the following Civil Parishes:

- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

The Precinct of the Priory of St. Mary without Bishopsgate (St. Mary Spital) (Blue) was originally part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Bishopsgate (excepting the northernmost 'tip', which was part of the Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch). By the end of the seventeenth century, it had become The Liberty of Norton Folgate (north) and The Old Artillery Ground (south).

The green areas, which constituted the Middlesex portions of the Precinct of the Priory of the Holy Trinity (Aldgate), were originally part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate. The smaller area (north) eventually became the Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories), while the larger area (south) became The Precinct of St. Katharine (west), and once again the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (east).

I fully intend to color-shade the subsequent divisions of the Ancient Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney (Red), listed above. But as yet, I have not found the time, with which to do so.

- Of course, the Ancient Parish of Bromley St. Leonard (Green) is already depicted! -

In the mean time, however, we can all refer to this splendid cartographic 'sketch', that Roy was able to uncover at Vision_of_Britian.org.


- Click the image to view the entire map at Vision_of_Britian.org –

*** Unfortunately; the 'GBHGIS Map Viewer' does not seem to be working. Or perhaps some component of the interactive link has 'expired'.***

Note the Parishes of St. Mary Stratford Bow and Bromley St. Leonard, in the upper right corner of the image.

---------

An 'outline' description of some major components of East London's political geography (1832-1965):

1832-1867

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex)
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

1867-1885

The Parliamentary Borough of Hackney:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex)
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

1885-1918

The Parliamentary Borough of Hackney:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington

The Parliamentary Borough of Shoreditch:
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch

The Parliamentary Borough of Bethnal Green:
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)*
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex, 1885-1889) (County of London, 1889-1918)**
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without***
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine***
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex, 1885-1889) (County of London, 1889-1918)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

* Abolished 1895: Part of the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel thereafter.

** The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (City of London) Abolished 1900: Part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (City of London) thereafter.

*** Abolished 1895: Part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of London) thereafter.

1855-1900

The Metropolitan Board of Works:

- Hackney District:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington

- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch

- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

- Whitechapel District:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)*
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex, 1855-1889) (County of London, 1889-1900)**
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without***
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine***
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex, 1855-1889) (County of London, 1889-1900)

- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town

- The Parish of St. George in the East

- Limehouse District:
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse

- Poplar District:
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

* Abolished 1895: Part of the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel thereafter.

** The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (City of London) Abolished 1900: Part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (City of London) thereafter.

*** Abolished 1895: Part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of London) thereafter.


1900-1965

The Metropolitan Borough of Hackney:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney

The Metropolitan Borough of Shoreditch:
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch

The Metropolitan Borough of Bethnal Green:
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

The Metropolitan Borough of Stepney:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Tower
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of London)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse

The Metropolitan Borough of Poplar:
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

The Civil Parishes of the County of London (1889-1965) were abolished between 1907 and 1927; thus rendering the respective Metropolitan Boroughs, the fundamental units of civil administration.

Gareth; since you have actually lived in London, would you please check the above 'outline', for any mistakes that I may have made?

---------

Something I threw together about two years ago.


Bury's Manor (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Green: The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
Black w/ Red Outline (left-to-right): Whitechapel Union Workhouse, South Grove, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town; City of London Union Infirmary, Mile End Road, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town / Bow Road, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
Aqua: Tower Hamlets Cemetary
Yellow: Network of Various Thoroughfares that Provided Bury Access to Mile End Road / Bow Road
Red (left-to-right / top-to-bottom): Quickett Street, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; Spanby Road (north/south), Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; Swaton Road, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; Blackthorn Street, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
Purple: All Hallows Church, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard

Beadle is our secondary source of information on the subject and he confirms that Bury lives simply in "Bow".

He doesn't "confirm" anything, in this instance, because he is plainly and simply incorrect!

Quickett Street was a part of Poplar.

That is not correct! Quickett Street was in the Parish of Bromley St. Leonard!

... I never realised that Bromley-by-Bow was simply "Bow" at the time although it makes pragmatic sense of course.

It wasn't !!!

Bromley-by-Bow was simply "Bromley", at the time !!!

[Roy Corduroy]

1882 Map

Orange-church where married. Red - Spanby Rd, residence.

[thegaff]

Thanks for clearing that up Rob, these nuances of language dialects and of history itself do make things complicated. However I never realised that Bromley-by-Bow was simply "Bow" at the time although it makes pragmatic sense of course. (see I am always prepared to admit my inadequancies). However I would question the officially bit, Bromley is nowhere near Bromley-by-Bow on a murderer's compass. Bromley is outside London to the south, and as we know, London is very very big.

Nice to meet you too my friend. And thanks for Beadle's link "Where we are with Bury". I await his next edition.

[thegaff]

I have a copy of the brilliant "Anatomy of a Myth" to hand. One of the things that strikes me is that I cannot find a mere mention of Bury until page 155 of 170 which gives credence to Beadle's contextual analysis.

Beadle is our secondary source of information on the subject and he confirms that Bury lives simply in "Bow". He lived in Quickett Street (no longer exists) then Swaton Road and from this address I can confirm that Bow actually refers to "Bromley-by-Bow" i.e. the East-End and not Bromley in Kent which has no reference to Bow whatsoever apart from a linguistical synonymn. After this he moved to Blackthorne Road and then Spanby Road, also in the East End. Quickett Street was a part of Poplar. I would guess the other streets were in the same district as they were in close proximity.

So to summarise, don't be confused and don't be told otherwise. Bury lived in the very thick of it and had more access than any of the other suspects. But whether he killed them I do not know.

On a totally different note, the other things I liked about Beadle's totally indifferent approach was his corroboration of Maxwell who I always thought was an important witness. Why she is readily discounted by some more important members of this board is beyond me. She was heavily questioned under oath and under duress and never buckled. She just seemed too sure for me to discount her. This is something that is actually recorded and not just hearsay and therefore something that we can rely on.

[Roy Corduroy]

I do have a geography degree. Oh, and I did live there as well.

Hi Gaff,

That's great. I like geography and from here in the US, I am learning lots about the area being a part of this forum. Everyone is so helpful. You are all right in your way. I think what Blue is getting at is that Bromley-by-Bow is a modern usage. Here's some info I found on the Wiki about it:

Bromley-by-Bow, historically and officially Bromley, is a place in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets.

In 1967, the London Underground station at Bromley was renamed to Bromley-by-Bow to distinguish it from the stations at Bromley in the London Borough of Bromley some 8 miles (12.9 km) to the south. Over time the station's name has extended to the area and today it is nearly always known as Bromley-by-Bow. (end quote)

Again, nice to make your acquaintance.

Roy

[thegaff]

Hi Septic Blue,

Not actually sure what you are talking about here. But you seem to question Sam Flynn's geography which I can verify is entirely correct. I do have a geography degree (I think it is worth mentioning at this point). Oh, and I did live there as well. That probably amounts to primary geographical knowledge.

[Roy Corduroy]

Tidbits

did (WHB) lodge in the east end when married to Ellen?

Yes Dixon, you could say they lodged in the "greater East End", that is, out in Bromley, which is by the River Lea.

In addition to his book, Bill Beadle also wrote an article Where We Are With Bury contained onsite. (click) In it are some interesting tidbits, to quote:

His (Bury) ...early childhood was horrendous. Within a year of his birth he lost his elder sister to 'status epilepticus', a series of recurring epileptic fits running into each other, his mother was packed off to a lunatic asylum and his father was killed in a carting accident, his body ripped asunder up the middle.

The police later established that Bury was out all night on the dates of the murders. When he returned home after the death of Annie Chapman he is reported to have behaved like a 'madman'

The police also discovered Bury had been a horsemeat butcher, cutting the meat up for cats' food..

...also that 'Polly' Nichols was wearing a jacket with a man leading a horse emblazoned on it. (end quote)

Roy

[thegaff]

And Bromley-by-Bow I can tell you is walking distance of Whitechapel because I used to live there. Mile End is also within Bromley-by-Bow. Area postcode is E3 and local constituency is Tower Hamlets. It's a good walk though and would take an hour but depends how fit you are.

[dixon9]

sorry should read *maybe a stupid question