Assessing the case against W.H.Bury

[Roy Corduroy]

1882 Map

Orange-church where married. Red - Spanby Rd, residence.

[Septic Blue]

Thanks for the lesson in London's political geography! To whom shall I write the cheque?

Make it out to "The Society of People Who've Actually Lived There".

And to think that I, having never actually lived in London, had the audacity to challenge the infinite wisdom of 'Sam Flynn'.

I'll make you a wager, Gareth. I'll bet you, that at least half of the people living in Durward Street today, would not recognize the street-name 'Buck's Row'.

I'm taking a chance, aren't I! After all, those people actually live in London!

Not actually sure what you are talking about here. But you seem to question Sam Flynn's geography which I can verify is entirely correct.

But in the context of an 1888 murder mystery; it is entirely incorrect!

That's Gunthorpe Street …

That's Durward Street …

That's Henriques Street …

That's Duval Street … actually … That's whatever-the-hell the name of that service road is …

We don't go 'round saying:

- that Martha Tabram was murdered in 'Gunthorpe Street'
- that Polly Nichols was murdered in 'Durward Street'
- that Elizabeth Stride was murdered in 'Henriques Street'
- or, that Mary Jane Kelly was murdered in 'whatever-the-hell the name of that service road is'

And accordingly, we shouldn't go 'round saying:

- that William Bury's Quickett Street, Blackthorn Street, Swaton Road and Spanby Road addresses were in 'Bromley-by-Bow'.

They were each in the Parish of Bromley St. Leonard: Colloquially abbreviated in 1888, as 'Bromley'.

To be fair: The colloquial reference 'Bromley-by-Bow' was used occasionally, during the period in question. I have, in fact, seen instances of its use in 1881 and 1891 census 'enumerations'. Interestingly; in many of those instances, the reference 'Bromley-by-Bow' was 'lined-through' and replaced with either 'Bromley' or 'Bromley St. Leonard'.

As the Municipal Borough of Bromley, County of Kent did not become the London Borough of Bromley until 1965; use of the reference 'Bromley-by-Bow' was, until that point in time, totally unnecessary and entirely colloquial in those instances, in which it did 'emerge'.

Where Gareth (a.k.a. 'Sam Flynn') has actually faltered, is not in his use of the reference 'Bromley-by-Bow'; but in his assumptions that use of the reference 'Bow', in this instance, is even remotely acceptable, and that use of the reference 'Bromley' is somehow incorrect, and for that matter, an "evil".

He is plainly and simply wrong!

I think what Blue is getting at is that Bromley-by-Bow is a modern usage.

Thank you, Roy!


Ancient Parochial Establishment of East London (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

- Yellow: The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- Orange: The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
- Red: The Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney
- Green: The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- Purple: The City of London
- Gold: The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
- Blue: The Precinct of the Priory of St. Mary without Bishopsgate (St. Mary Spital)
- Green: The Precinct of the Priory of the Holy Trinity (Aldgate) (County of Middlesex)

The Ancient Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney (Red) was divided, between the years 1329 and 1867, into the following Civil Parishes:

- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

The Precinct of the Priory of St. Mary without Bishopsgate (St. Mary Spital) (Blue) was originally part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Bishopsgate (excepting the northernmost 'tip', which was part of the Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch). By the end of the seventeenth century, it had become The Liberty of Norton Folgate (north) and The Old Artillery Ground (south).

The green areas, which constituted the Middlesex portions of the Precinct of the Priory of the Holy Trinity (Aldgate), were originally part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate. The smaller area (north) eventually became the Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories), while the larger area (south) became The Precinct of St. Katharine (west), and once again the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (east).

I fully intend to color-shade the subsequent divisions of the Ancient Parish of St. Dunstan Stepney (Red), listed above. But as yet, I have not found the time, with which to do so.

- Of course, the Ancient Parish of Bromley St. Leonard (Green) is already depicted! -

In the mean time, however, we can all refer to this splendid cartographic 'sketch', that Roy was able to uncover at Vision_of_Britian.org.


- Click the image to view the entire map at Vision_of_Britian.org –

*** Unfortunately; the 'GBHGIS Map Viewer' does not seem to be working. Or perhaps some component of the interactive link has 'expired'.***

Note the Parishes of St. Mary Stratford Bow and Bromley St. Leonard, in the upper right corner of the image.

---------

An 'outline' description of some major components of East London's political geography (1832-1965):

1832-1867

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex)
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

1867-1885

The Parliamentary Borough of Hackney:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex)
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

1885-1918

The Parliamentary Borough of Hackney:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington

The Parliamentary Borough of Shoreditch:
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch

The Parliamentary Borough of Bethnal Green:
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

The Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)*
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex, 1885-1889) (County of London, 1889-1918)**
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without***
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine***
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex, 1885-1889) (County of London, 1889-1918)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

* Abolished 1895: Part of the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel thereafter.

** The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (City of London) Abolished 1900: Part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (City of London) thereafter.

*** Abolished 1895: Part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of London) thereafter.

1855-1900

The Metropolitan Board of Works:

- Hackney District:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney
- The Parish of St. Mary Stoke Newington

- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch

- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

- Whitechapel District:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity (Minories)*
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (County of Middlesex, 1855-1889) (County of London, 1889-1900)**
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Precinct of Old Tower Without***
--- The Tower
- The Precinct of St. Katharine***
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of Middlesex, 1855-1889) (County of London, 1889-1900)

- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town

- The Parish of St. George in the East

- Limehouse District:
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse

- Poplar District:
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

* Abolished 1895: Part of the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel thereafter.

** The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (City of London) Abolished 1900: Part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (City of London) thereafter.

*** Abolished 1895: Part of the Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of London) thereafter.


1900-1965

The Metropolitan Borough of Hackney:
- The Parish of St. John at Hackney

The Metropolitan Borough of Shoreditch:
- The Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch

The Metropolitan Borough of Bethnal Green:
- The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

The Metropolitan Borough of Stepney:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- The Liberty of the Tower
--- The Tower
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (County of London)
- The Parish of St. George in the East
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse

The Metropolitan Borough of Poplar:
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

The Civil Parishes of the County of London (1889-1965) were abolished between 1907 and 1927; thus rendering the respective Metropolitan Boroughs, the fundamental units of civil administration.

Gareth; since you have actually lived in London, would you please check the above 'outline', for any mistakes that I may have made?

---------

Something I threw together about two years ago.


Bury's Manor (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Green: The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
Black w/ Red Outline (left-to-right): Whitechapel Union Workhouse, South Grove, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town; City of London Union Infirmary, Mile End Road, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town / Bow Road, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
Aqua: Tower Hamlets Cemetary
Yellow: Network of Various Thoroughfares that Provided Bury Access to Mile End Road / Bow Road
Red (left-to-right / top-to-bottom): Quickett Street, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; Spanby Road (north/south), Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; Swaton Road, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; Blackthorn Street, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
Purple: All Hallows Church, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard

Beadle is our secondary source of information on the subject and he confirms that Bury lives simply in "Bow".

He doesn't "confirm" anything, in this instance, because he is plainly and simply incorrect!

Quickett Street was a part of Poplar.

That is not correct! Quickett Street was in the Parish of Bromley St. Leonard!

... I never realised that Bromley-by-Bow was simply "Bow" at the time although it makes pragmatic sense of course.

It wasn't !!!

Bromley-by-Bow was simply "Bromley", at the time !!!

[dixon9]

thanks for all your help people (much needed) so a walk from most of the murder scenes to WHB lodgings would prob be between 40mins to one hour?

[John Bennett]

Can I just put forward a proposition?

Much of this seems to be focusing on parish boundaries and definitions thereof. Perhaps I should post this on the 'Geo-spacial analysis thread', but here goes:

Does anybody here think that the Ripper (whether they were Bury or not) gave even a moment's consideration to parish boundaries or the exact definition of the area they committed the murders in?

I can't see it myself.

[babybird67]

actually yes John

I think he took a tape measure and a pedometer with him, and should a parish fall an inch outside of his remit, he would just turn back and go home and read a good book.

[Septic Blue]

Does anybody here think that the Ripper (whether they were Bury or not) gave even a moment's consideration to parish boundaries or the exact definition of the area they committed the murders in?

I can't see it myself.

I can't either!

But then; neither can I see 'Jack the Ripper' giving "even a moment's consideration" to the history of Flower & Dean Street!

[Jon Guy]

Then again, someone who may strut confidently around his own patch, may get a good kicking in another area.

[John Bennett]

But then; neither can I see 'Jack the Ripper' giving "even a moment's consideration" to the history of Flower & Dean Street!

Yes, I'm sure he couldn't have given a toss.

[Sam Flynn]

What I'm getting at, Colin, is that Bromley-by-Bow is, as the name suggests, adjacent to Bow - whereas (The London Borough of) Bromley isn't "by anything". To insist that "Bromley" (on its own) is a less ambiguous shorthand for "Bromley-by-Bow" is simply incorrect, as it could easily be confused with "Bromley[-by-nowhere]" in South London. At least using "Bow" as a shorthand for "B-by-B" puts one within spitting distance, and it's certainly not worth getting lathered up about it when people do so. Not everyone is as well-informed or enthusiastic about the minutiae of London parish boundaries as you are.

[Septic Blue]

What I'm getting at, Colin, is that Bromley-by-Bow is, as the name suggests, adjacent to Bow - whereas (The London Borough of) Bromley isn't "by anything". To insist that "Bromley" (on its own) is a less ambiguous shorthand for "Bromley-by-Bow" is simply incorrect, as it could easily be confused with "Bromley[-by-nowhere]" in South London. At least using "Bow" as a shorthand for "B-by-B" puts one within spitting distance, and it's certainly not worth getting lathered up about it when people do so. Not everyone is as well-informed or enthusiastic about the minutiae of London parish boundaries as you are.

I can accept your position, as stated, Gareth.

Thank you!

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you, also, Colin. You're a gentleman and a scholar - as ever.

[johns]

thanks for all your help people (much needed) so a walk from most of the murder scenes to WHB lodgings would prob be between 40mins to one hour?

It took me 45 minutes to walk from Campbell Road to the junction of Whitechapel Rd and Commercial St.. and my leg was a bit stiff at the time.

[thegaff]

What I'm getting at, Colin, is that Bromley-by-Bow is, as the name suggests, adjacent to Bow - whereas (The London Borough of) Bromley isn't "by anything". To insist that "Bromley" (on its own) is a less ambiguous shorthand for "Bromley-by-Bow" is simply incorrect, as it could easily be confused with "Bromley[-by-nowhere]" in South London. At least using "Bow" as a shorthand for "B-by-B" puts one within spitting distance, and it's certainly not worth getting lathered up about it when people do so. Not everyone is as well-informed or enthusiastic about the minutiae of London parish boundaries as you are.

I have to back Sam up on this one. Basically Bromley is not near Bromley-by-Bow. This is the point I am trying to make. Bromley is actually in Kent which is only local in the sense that they are neighbouring counties. But they are 12 miles apart as the crow flies and this route crosses the Thames.

I guess this is where a bit of local knowledge is priceless although your efforts in research and your knowledge of area zones\parishes is very impressive.

[caz]

Hi All,

Living near Bromley myself (the one the number 119 bus kindly takes me to from Shirley - 24-hour service, wonderful!), I still tend to do a double take, even after ten years at casebook, whenever I see Bromley being used in the 1888 'by Bow' sense with no obvious qualifiers.

I wonder if a neat compromise that should satisfy everyone from newbie to purist would be to write: Bromley (by Bow) to avoid any future confusion or misunderstandings?

Love,

Caz
X

[Lechmere]

Bury is an interesting suspect and has more going for him than the celebrities. Namely he was a murderer and he did live in the East End during the Ripper murders. These two facts are hardly enough to pin the Ripper murders on him however. The main reasons why Bury is an unlikely suspect are:
He did not live in the East End for long. A year maybe. Not long enough I think to feel sufficiently comfortable and secure to commit random crimes in what would have been unfamiliar streets. He lived in Bow and Bromley-by-Bow. That is a good 40 minutes walk to Whitechapel. An easy walk but it is a different area. He is likely to have been reasonably familiar with Bow. There is very little evidence to link him to Whitechapel. Having lived for a number of years between Stepney Green and Whitechapel and then in Bow, they are distinct areas with quite different centres of gravity. The population in 1888 was about three times denser in distribution making the separate parts of the East End more distinct than they are now.
He would not have been able to ‘park’ his horse and cart at random places while he slept off his drink. The various yards were privately owned. The horse and cart would have been an encumbrance not and asset in carrying out his crimes. There is not a single witness who remembers seeing a horse and cart.
Mentally think through the double event and take him in his horse and cart from Berner Street, to Mitre Square and home via Goulston Street. While half cut. It doesn’t work.
I agree that it is unlikely that two similar murderers were operating in the East End, i.e. two ‘motiveless’ random serial killers of middle aged drunken prostitutes late at night in the Whitechapel-Spitalfields area.
However there were other cases of husbands killing wives in the East End. Bury had a financial motive. It was clearly very premeditated (he prepared her ‘coffin’ in Bow before going to Dundee) and not ‘random’. Bury strangled his wife with a rope, while the Ripper used his hands.
There were other fatal knife attacks in the East End after Bury was hanged that are much more similar to the canonical murders than that of Bury’s wife. If we accept that the attack on Bury’s wife bears the hallmarks of the Ripper, then Bury must have been innocent. Jack the Ripper must have followed him to Scotland, killed his wife and returned to London to kill McKenzie!
His Jack Ripper scrawling are clearly understandable as people in Scotland mentioned the case to him and his wife when he got there as it was such a notorious incident.
The supporting evidence such as the hangman saying Bury made various ambiguous semi confessions, or the supposed remarks by the two mystery London policemen who went to Dundee have to be treated with extreme caution as he only ‘remembered’ these remarks after he wrote his autobiography. It is far more likely that he conveniently remembered these details to give himself more notoriety.
Furthermore sleeping with a pen knife under his pillow does not equate to Bury having a knife fixation still less a fetish about knives.
I will also add that when people say where they live or associate themselves with a town or district, they will seldom do it with regard to the formal parish name, the electoral division or the municipality. Thus I used to live in Stepney Green which is just a vague area. I am fairly sure people wouldn’t have said they lived in Mile End Old Town or Mile End New Town. Depending on where about it was they would say Bethnal Green, Whitechapel, Stepney Green or just Mile End. Similarly I suspect no one would have said they lived in St George’s. They would have said Wapping or Whitechapel, or Stepney. In the southern parts of the Parish of St Leonard Bromley, people would have said they lived in Poplar, in some parts they would have said Bromley or Bromley-by-Bow and in others just Bow.