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Could Bury have been the Batty Street Lodger?

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  • Could Bury have been the Batty Street Lodger?

    The Batty Street Lodger story is one of those interesting little ‘sides’ attached to the autumn of terror, the truth of which, based on the various different newspaper accounts, seems virtually impenetrable. If there is any truth in it, it seems that: ‘This man was said to have returned to his lodging at an early hour on the Sunday morning on which the Berner-street and Mitre-square murders were committed. His landlady was disturbed by his movements, and she noticed next morning that he had changed his clothes”.

    He left behind a blood stained (soaked in some accounts) shirt. In some versions it seems the man was never traced, in others he was traced and released. Everything else sounds like a lot of hocus pocus to be honest. There is a very good and long account here: Mr's Kuer's Lodger (https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kuer.html).

    What follows is basically gratuitous, outrageous suspect-based speculation. Just an idea, not to be taken too seriously, before anyone goes bananas! The statements of Hastings are From Steve Earp's post here: http://williambury.org/blog6/2022/09...s-on-hastings/.

    **********************************

    When Norman Hastings spoke to detectives who had worked the Bury case, he uncovered some interesting information about where Bury was staying at the time of some of the murders. The wording of one of these statements allows for a lot of speculation:
    • Scotland Yard learned that “on one occasion when he was definitely known to be staying in the East End at the time of a Ripper crime, he (Bury) had absented himself from the house for that night in the most suspicious manner”
    Not just suspicious, or a little bit suspicious, ‘the most suspicious’ – we can only speculate wildly about what this means.

    But why think that Bury was using a lodging house in the first place?
    • "Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill.”
    Bury’s permanent address during the autumn of terror was Spanby Road in Bow. As Steve Earp argues, it sounds like Bury was using moving about at other addresses as well. Could these addresses have been lodging houses? As it sounds (below) like these addresses were ‘traced’, it seems like Bury was using proper addresses, rather than dossing in stables, as he had been known to do.

    So where was Bury for the some of the murders? The police found out where Bury was staying at the time of the Chapman murder, plus three others:
    • Scotland Yard knew where Bury was staying on the night of the Chapman murder, and “established where he had been staying on the nights of three other of the Whitechapel murders, and from the recollection of those who lived nearby, it was quite possible that he had the opportunity to commit them”.
    Thankfully, Steve Earp has already done some thinking on this.

    1- The police knew where Bury was staying at the time of the Chapman murder:
    • “The home of Bury in the East End at the time of the Hanbury Street murder was traced, and again it was ascertained that on that night Bury had kept away from his home, and his manner on his return home the next afternoon suggested a madman”.
    2 - The police knew where Bury was staying for the Kelly murder:
    • Scotland Yard “had established the fact that he was missing from his lodgings on the night that Marie Kelly was done to death in her home in Dorset Street”
    • “his description was very like that of the man who had been speaking to the young woman Kelly on the night of the crime”
    Hastings and the police seem to regard Tabram as the first ripper murder:
    • Hastings states: ‘Bury did not return to his hometown of Wolverhampton, which took place in mid-August 1888, until “just after the time of the first Whitechapel murder, when he brought with him the woman he called his wife”
    • Hastings wrote that “No one knew where he stayed in the East End prior to going to his new landlord’s home” (this is a reference to Spanby Road, where he moved on 11th August 1888).
    So the police knew where Bury was staying for Chapman and Kelly, plus another two murders (but not Tabram though as his address wasn’t known). That leaves the double event and Nicholls murder.

    It seems highly unlikely the police knew where Bury stayed for Nicholls and one of the double event murders but not the other, as it is the same night, so the two other murders must be the Stride and Eddowes.

    So the police knew where Bury stayed on the double event night – could ‘he absented himself from the house for that night in the most suspicious manner’ be a reference to Batty Street? Honestly, no idea, but Bury does seem to have had other addresses than Bow, and he could have been using lodging houses. Whatever the police were referring to with 'most suspicious manner' it must have been serious.

    If it was thought he had the opportunity to commit the crimes, wherever these other addresses were must have been close to or even in Whitechapel. In thinking about Bury and the double event, it’s also useful to remember Bury was said to have had a ‘powerful chest’ (BS man?) and more importantly, Bury inflicted some deeply perverted injuries on his wife, virtually identical in nature to those found on Eddowes.

    I suppose the lodger could have been Bury. Seems high risk though. The lodger story could also account for the GSG not being there on the first pass, but dropped after the lodger changed and left a bit later. Where would Bury have been going though – another house; to get his horse and cart and head home?

    In terms of other ideas, I know there is theory of Tumblety. Unless I missed something on the Mr's Kuer's Lodger post, I can’t see how someone (possibly Tumblety) staying in a hotel in the west end relates to Batty Street.

    Anyway, just an idea, not to be taken too seriously.

  • #2
    I don't understand the whole lodger story at all. I think I am missing something so help me out here if you can. If the story is true, why wasn't anybody even remotely thought to be the Ripper brought before the landlady for identification?

    c.d.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by c.d. View Post
      I don't understand the whole lodger story at all. I think I am missing something so help me out here if you can. If the story is true, why wasn't anybody even remotely thought to be the Ripper brought before the landlady for identification?

      c.d.
      That's what some people have asked about John McInnis in the Bible John case.

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      • #4
        Wasn't Henry Wentworth Bellsmith the Batty Street Lodger?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by c.d. View Post
          I don't understand the whole lodger story at all. I think I am missing something so help me out here if you can. If the story is true, why wasn't anybody even remotely thought to be the Ripper brought before the landlady for identification?

          c.d.
          No idea to be honest. Perhaps something like that did happen, but what would it prove? The man stayed there and left that night in a suspicious manner. By the time the man was tracked down he could have easily come up with a plausible explanation.

          One thing I wonder about, is where were the police finding out this info about Bury, certainly wasn't his wife on account her being dead. In terms of the the lodger, what if they actually had Bury's name or even talked to him and let go. These things do happen. Then when they were investigating him spring 1889 the paperwork came to light again e.g. "William Bury, interviewed about Batty Street bloody shirt on night of double event. Explained himself and released". That way they would know where he was staying and the manner of his absence that night.

          My gut feeling is that the lodger story is something and nothing. That is partly because the story has so many versions. By the end it sounds like the lodger was not a lodger but some bloke that dropped off a shirt to be washed.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
            Wasn't Henry Wentworth Bellsmith the Batty Street Lodger?
            Well in all likelihood it was either him or Tumblety.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

              Well in all likelihood it was either him or Tumblety.
              Didnt Littlejohn mention that Special Branch had someone under surveillance in Batty Street in his correspondence concerning Tumblety?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by spyglass View Post
                Didnt Littlejohn mention that Special Branch had someone under surveillance in Batty Street in his correspondence concerning Tumblety?
                Just going on the essay I referenced about Mr's Kuer's Lodger, the link from Batty Street to west end where possibly Tumblety was staying sounds pretty contrived.

                It was just an odd little suspect based fancy I had. At its core, the lodger story is a man absenting himself from a house on the night of double event in a sus manner. Sounds like Bury could have been using lodging houses and did absent himself from an address on a murder night 'in the most suspicious manner' - we don't know which murder though. It was either double event or chapman or kelly.

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                • #9
                  All a bit urban myth sounding to me. If even if remotely true the erratic behaviour of the lodger would most likely be explained away by something mundane or slightly unsavoury. Sure it would have been easy at the time to see all/any type of weird behaviour as evidence of guilt!
                  Best wishes,

                  Tristan

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                  • #10
                    And why would the Ripper or anyone involved in something shady ask the landlady to wash a bloody shirt with all that was going on at the time? Very brazen or very stupid.

                    c.d.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                      And why would the Ripper or anyone involved in something shady ask the landlady to wash a bloody shirt with all that was going on at the time? Very brazen or very stupid.

                      c.d.
                      Most likely the story is a load of bull or just some strange coincidence. Some versions have the lodger giving the shirt to the woman, others that he just left it behind.

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                      • #12
                        Others speculate it was Kosminski who was the Batty Street Lodger. Not enough background to say definitively. Gavin Bromley's article and follow-up probably come the closest.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                          Gavin Bromley's article and follow-up probably come the closest.
                          What are the references for those Scott?

                          Thanks

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                          • #14
                            Did not Rob House show that the stories commonly associated with Batty Street were inaccurate?

                            In his work, "the case for Scotland yards prime suspect" , he produced the original press reports, that were significantly different from the common account.

                            Mrs Kuer, while letting out rooms was also a laundress, the shirt apparently had been left with her, not by a lodger, but by a local man.
                            A master tailor, with connections to West End fashion houses. The shirt was not his, but that of a friend who had cut himself, while trimming his corn.

                            Who do we know who had a connection to a master tailor Who lived locally to Batty street, with connections to West End fashion houses?

                            I am a little surprised that the lodger story is still being treated seriously given the work.bwork.by House.

                            Steve

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                              Others speculate it was Kosminski who was the Batty Street Lodger. Not enough background to say definitively. Gavin Bromley's article and follow-up probably come the closest.
                              Hi Scott.

                              Just to be clear--Bromley suggested the lodger was Israel Schwartz.

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