Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Other Chalk Writings

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Other Chalk Writings

    Newspaper search has yielded some other examples of other chalk graffiti found in East / SE London around the time of the murders, so I post these below for anyone interested.
    These are considered quite odd at the time to be newsworthy, but I don’t think generally attributed to the ripper, and don’t get nearly the same commentary as the GSG.

    There was chalk graffiti found in Bury's flat in Princes Street shortly after his arrest, and published in the Dundee newspapers. But it was never proven whether it was actually Bury, or some cheeky school kids, or even Ellen. It was said in the report that these were older than the murder. Because of the layout of the premises in Princes Street to me it sounds like it quite well may have been Bury.



  • #2
    Click image for larger version

Name:	10th September.JPG
Views:	202
Size:	103.8 KB
ID:	781831
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • #3
      Click image for larger version

Name:	29th September.JPG
Views:	206
Size:	71.3 KB
ID:	781834
      Attached Files

      Comment


      • #4
        Click image for larger version

Name:	19th October.JPG
Views:	203
Size:	160.4 KB
ID:	781837
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Click image for larger version

Name:	17th November.JPG
Views:	178
Size:	92.3 KB
ID:	781839

          Comment


          • #6
            Click image for larger version

Name:	19th November.JPG
Views:	177
Size:	64.1 KB
ID:	781841

            Comment


            • #7
              Interesting, thanks for these. Particularly how the one in post #4 indicates they photographed it this time. And the possible reference to Eddowes in the "I have done another ?nothing?" The ?nothing? because the word is only suggested that it might read nothing as it was not clear. As PC Robinson testified at the inquest that Eddowes replied "nothing" when asked her name, this doesn't really require any inside knowledge of the crimes.

              Of course, "murder" might be an alternative option for the word depending upon just how indistinct the writing was, in which case the reference to Eddowes specifically disappears.

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • #8
                Interesting work. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these are genuine ripper messages, especially the one found in Hanbury Street and stating it was the third, which would tally with tabram, nicholls and Chapman. There also seems to be a theme of keeping count in several of them that sounds similar. Also interesting that the idea of giving himself up is mentioned several times - not that what Bury did really classes as giving himself up. I was also interested in 'receive her heart message' - i wonder if this has shades of eating half of Eddowes' kidney? 'Receive' is an odd word to use, perhaps eating the parts was some way of possessing his victims.

                I suspect Bury did write the Dundee messages. From what we know, I think ellen was probably terrified of him and wouldn't risk the consequences of writing like that. Also wasn't it said she 'wrote ill'? As per the messages you found, maybe this was some effort at 'handing himself in'?

                Anyway, a victim with ripper-like injuries, some identical, turns up near some chalk messages in the context of a proven knife carrying, prostitute using, Whitechapel frequenting misogynist, who fits pretty much every aspect of the FBI profile, and who fits many of the witness statements and whose presence/absence bookends the unanimous ripper victims (police and doctors)? The sensible money is on Bury having written them and we know he could write in several hands - perhaps doing it in schoolboy hand meant he could laugh it off if he changed his mind?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                  PC Robinson testified at the inquest that Eddowes replied "nothing" when asked her name
                  - Jeff
                  Hi Jeff,

                  Do you think that this is the "nothing" in the GSG? It would require Eddows relating to JtR the details of her evenings incarceration.

                  Cheers, George
                  “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                  Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again. - Andre Gide

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                    Hi Jeff,

                    Do you think that this is the "nothing" in the GSG? It would require Eddows relating to JtR the details of her evenings incarceration.

                    Cheers, George
                    That would suggest the killer was the desk sergeant or PC on duty at the time of Eddowes release - they were the only ones who would know that. My guess is they were still both on duty at the time.

                    I have always believed the GSG is referencing Stride, and the apron was his clue to ensure the police linked both murders so he would receive the proper credit. Stride was found on the property of a Jewish Socialist club. I don't see the leap that wild.
                    Author of 'Jack the Ripper: Threads' out now on Amazon > UK | USA | CA | AUS
                    JayHartley.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post
                      Interesting work. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these are genuine ripper messages, especially the one found in Hanbury Street and stating it was the third, which would tally with tabram, nicholls and Chapman. There also seems to be a theme of keeping count in several of them that sounds similar. Also interesting that the idea of giving himself up is mentioned several times - not that what Bury did really classes as giving himself up. I was also interested in 'receive her heart message' - i wonder if this has shades of eating half of Eddowes' kidney? 'Receive' is an odd word to use, perhaps eating the parts was some way of possessing his victims.

                      I suspect Bury did write the Dundee messages. From what we know, I think ellen was probably terrified of him and wouldn't risk the consequences of writing like that. Also wasn't it said she 'wrote ill'? As per the messages you found, maybe this was some effort at 'handing himself in'?

                      Anyway, a victim with ripper-like injuries, some identical, turns up near some chalk messages in the context of a proven knife carrying, prostitute using, Whitechapel frequenting misogynist, who fits pretty much every aspect of the FBI profile, and who fits many of the witness statements and whose presence/absence bookends the unanimous ripper victims (police and doctors)? The sensible money is on Bury having written them and we know he could write in several hands - perhaps doing it in schoolboy hand meant he could laugh it off if he changed his mind?
                      Just a point of note. If you believe Bury is the killer and the chalk messages are his, then you are going against the FBI profile. They believe he was an unorganised killer who acted on impulse and had no interest in leaving clues or messages - hence why they take the view that all the Ripper letters are fake. They have to take the same stance on the chalk messages too to maintain that profile.

                      If the killer did write messages in chalk or write letters then he becomes an organised killer and that makes his profile quite different. His patterns of behaviours and habits will be somewhat different to the impulse killer that the FBI believe he was.
                      Author of 'Jack the Ripper: Threads' out now on Amazon > UK | USA | CA | AUS
                      JayHartley.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                        Hi Jeff,

                        Do you think that this is the "nothing" in the GSG? It would require Eddows relating to JtR the details of her evenings incarceration.

                        Cheers, George
                        Hi George,

                        I doubt it, but I suppose it's possible she brought it up during conversation. To me, though, I see it as she gave that when she was booked, and it sounds like she was pretty drunk so she may not have even recalled saying that at the time when she was released. I'm sure she's got better stories to regale a punter with as well.

                        In the GSG, the "will not be blamed for nothing" reminds me of how, when I was growing up, we sometimes used "nothing" for "anything", as in "I'm not doing nothing" meant "I'm not doing anything", so the GSG could be using it similarly, but in the entire context, is basically accusing the Jews of not accepting blame for anything (so antisemitic).

                        However, if one got in trouble even though it was your brother who did whatever it was, then you might tell your friends you "got grounded for nothing", which would mean you got grounded for not doing anything, and it carried the idea of "without reason", so I think the GSG could also be saying there's a reason to blame the Jews, which again is antisemitic.

                        While both are similar in many ways, the exact concept is different. And, although ambiguous as to which translation would be the more accurate (if either), both come out suggeting a gentile author. Now, whether or not that was Eddowes' killer, ... Who knows? We can't even figure out exactly what it says, let alone who is saying it.

                        - Jeff

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There also seems to be a theme of keeping count in several of them
                          Thanks Wulf, acute observations as usual. I notice two of them have this rude knife/dagger drawing seems like it may have been the same person.
                          I will try to plot these on a map at some point.

                          One thing struck home reading that excellent book Letters from Hell was how many people at the time thought it would be jolly japes to send police letters claiming to be JTR. We know there are nobbers from recent cases like Yorkshire ripper, but it seems at this time it was a craze.
                          That said I think the GSG is genuine and relates to Stride, with Schwartz being the one who shouldnt be blamed for nothing.

                          Just a point of note. If you believe Bury is the killer and the chalk messages are his, then you are going against the FBI profile.
                          This is a good point, I do want the cake and eat it on Bury's behaviour. But I seem to recall somewhere this is one of the points they were not sure about and later retracted this, but I must dig this up to be sure.
                          But you are right, because of Douglas's orginal profile, other proponents of Bury dont think he wrote any of the letters, for example Beadle dosent think it likely the GSG is genuine.

                          Last edited by Wiggins; 02-19-2022, 10:28 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                            Just a point of note. If you believe Bury is the killer and the chalk messages are his, then you are going against the FBI profile. They believe he was an unorganised killer who acted on impulse and had no interest in leaving clues or messages - hence why they take the view that all the Ripper letters are fake. They have to take the same stance on the chalk messages too to maintain that profile.

                            If the killer did write messages in chalk or write letters then he becomes an organised killer and that makes his profile quite different. His patterns of behaviours and habits will be somewhat different to the impulse killer that the FBI believe he was.
                            To be fair I've never claimed Bury matches the profile exactly, even in my original post on Bury I said 'Whilst you might not expect Jack the Ripper to meet every criterion on the profile, you would, in my opinion, expect him to match with a good number of the characteristics'. But he does match a lot of the points well, better than any other suspect. And also consider what he did as well and his comings and goings.

                            I'm not sure how the profile was done but I would imagine there were points specific to the case and other generalisations from serial killer cases. Killers don't usually correspond so it might fall into the generalisation category. Wiggins can probably correct me on this but didn't bury spend all his time in prison writing some sort of memoir that he gave to his agent? He also produced forgery and was said to write in several hands, and worked as a clerk copying text into ledgers (i think that is what a factor's clerk did anyway) - if any of the suspects might have written messages Bury is a good bet. Who knows, he might even of been writing a diary in prison.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                              That would suggest the killer was the desk sergeant or PC on duty at the time of Eddowes release - they were the only ones who would know that. My guess is they were still both on duty at the time.
                              Hi erobitha,

                              I'm not suggesting police involvement. I'm thinking that maybe Eddows was sufficiently acquainted with JtR to relate the story of her incarceration to him, along the lines of "when the copper asked for my name I told him it was nothing".

                              Cheers, George
                              “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                              Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again. - Andre Gide

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X