Bury's Neck

[Aethelwulf]

recall that amongst bury's possessions in Dundee (through the keyhole thread) was a black cape - from the farmer incident: 'when we got to the corner of Brick Lane we lost sight of him....I noticed that he had an overcoat with a cape on it'

Manchester Guardian 22nd nov

I was going to make the same point. A sex worker's word is often ignored or turned against them

Yeah exactly

So a few post above there is an example of a women beaten and robbed by two men, found naked on a barrelcart.
And so the next day she's repremanded for being drunk.

Now Im not one of these 'light a candle in a park' singing for feminism types
but even i can see this is a bit harsh.

[Aethelwulf]

On Farmer the notion she would cut her own throat for a few coins is simply ridiculous. All the witness statements attest this was attempted murder. In the epicenter and at the height of the ripper crimes with the archetype victim profile.

we know now that victims sometimes do fend off their attackers so there's no excuse.

yes, all the witnesses give pretty much the same description as this:

Sarah Turner, who was standing at her door in Thrawl-street at the time of the occurrence, stated that she saw a man running in the direction of Brick-lane, followed by three or four others. She described him as a short, thick fellow, 5ft 4in high. She could not see if he had a moustache, as he was holding his hand up to his mouth. One witness alleged that he stopped the man as he was making his escape from the house, but that he shook him off, striking him with a whip which he held in his hand. Several other persons who were present gave particulars of the man, corroborating in almost every detail the account of his appearance given by the woman herself, viz.: age, 30; height, 5ft 6in; fair moustache; wearing a black diagonal coat and a hard felt hat.

Daily Telegraph 22nd Nov

[Single-O-Seven]

It's the same with green River killer and Yorkshire ripper and many others, people only start to take prostituting woman seriosly after when they're dead

I was going to make the same point. A sex worker's word is often ignored or turned against them - which is why so many never bother to report to the police when they are a victim. Sadly, even their murdered remains aren't always seen as hugely important.

[John Wheat]

It's the same with green River killer and Yorkshire ripper and many others, people only start to take prostituting woman seriosly after when they're dead

That's true unfortunately Wiggins.

It's the same with green River killer and Yorkshire ripper and many others, people only start to take prostituting woman seriosly after when they're dead

On Farmer the notion she would cut her own throat for a few coins is simply ridiculous. All the witness statements attest this was attempted murder. In the epicenter and at the height of the ripper crimes with the archetype victim profile.

we know now that victims sometimes do fend off their attackers so there's no excuse.

[Aethelwulf]

hi wiggins
I view bury as a valid a suspect as any, and indeed more than most. But i just dont think there is enough there to conclude farmer, or mylet for that matter, as ripper victims-I only have them both at about a 20% possibility. sounds to me that farmer was stealing from the man which caused (from either herself or him) the "cut" neck.
of course both could have run a foul of the ripper, i just dont see it as likely.

I'd say i'm 55-45 in favour of Mylett. Anyone that harbours any suspicion against Bury should be raising an eyebrow at a potential ripper victim turning up relatively close to Bury's home and strangled with a cord like his wife, after he has sold his cart and probably not bothering with Whitechapel.

As for Farmer, Earp's bit of info on this convinces me it was Bury. The physical description, whip, abusive relationship, drinker, scar and necktie. Reading the reports the self inflicted bit sounds like pure guesswork and no one will convince me a gaping cut throat is worth pennies. I suspect the pennies in the mouth was just the money he gave her as an inducement (from his ready stash like that found in dundee?) and didn't want to give up. I also think the method she describes could be what he did with Kelly. She said she got into bed but the man stayed up and sometime later she felt the knife on her throat. Perhaps there was no light in there and he was groping a bit whereas Kelly seems to have had a fire that may have been alight already.

Yeah I kept coming across reports of people/ someone doing this as I was trawling through newspapers over the period, some of it quite sinister, threatening witnesses etc I got a few days off I try to fish them out and put altogether on here

[Aethelwulf]

I had a quick look is this related to this do you think?

Doesn't sound like the same event to me.

On the Mylett times, ignore what I said, I just got the two statements mixed up.

Interested to see what else you've got on the other chalk graffiti. I thought the wording of that 'receive her heart' message sounded a bit creepy, especially before the Kelly murder, although perhaps just a coincidence that it was found on 29th Oct (although could have been written before that). He did go missing for days at a time - who knows where he went off to on his horse and cart.

Also spotted this in the Daily News 22 Dec after the Mylett murder - but can't find the source. Not sure it is relevant either as Dalston seems to be about 4 miles NW of Bow: 'Some colour is given to the suggestion that "Jack the Ripper" has adopted a new style of assassination by a complaint recently made at Dalston Police court by a woman that a man had attempted to strangle her in a in a somewhat similar manner.'

I had a quick look is this related to this do you think?

'bill' 'catch the ship' reference seems to be at 7.55 pm

I read this as being a short time before the body is discovered - they were in a hurry along high street near the scene, i reread it. Where did you get this time from lol maybe i missed something, i probably did to be fair.

Not taken on the accomplice theory. I can imagine Bury would have been out with a fellow bad egg

Im not either, i put forward for people thoughts, but not sold on it.
but this description of these two men matches closly that given by Israel Schwartz and strengthens both.
I did think that Schwartz made up this second man the pipeman to make himself seem less cowardly running from the scene of a JTR murder. But now im not so sure.
Yes we have this verified from Ellen, who told her neighbour he kept bad company and was staying out late - this is buried in the trial notes somewhere along with Burys comment that he misses his friends in London.

Problem with being speculative is that people really want their suspects to be viable but flights of fancy diminish the other aspects of their case which are good.
Like Beagles second book where he goes into his theory of the horse connection, the other stuff on Bury is very good, but this argument diminshes his overall case.
That might explain why Earp is being cautious on the neck scar. He dosent need it, so he dismisses it.

But for me I dont mind so much, we know a much of Burys movements more than most, but there is a great deal we dont. And because of the timings and circumstances, which you described well above, Rose Mylett is a prime candiate for a victim of Bury.

But the problem is if you look at Mylett, you're looking at two men involved. It is rare but it is by no means unheard of.
And when they happen they get up to all manner of wicked schemes.

[Abby Normal]

I'm glad you bought this thread back to Farmer and Burys neck, but I would like to defend myself a little.

On the subject of the accomplices, I do find these sitings of two men suspicious, Tabram and Myletts were multiply attested. The police at the time took them seriously, and they never did find them. No I don't think it's ridiculous at all to think people are capable of deception, such things are easably obtaonable and there are many cases of murderous duos. I do get a sinister feeling around the Rose Mylett statements in particular I copied above.
We are allowed to keep an open mind?
that said agree it is speculative but I enjoy discussing it, without being called as non adult which is just silly.

On firmer ground I don't think Farmer cut her own throat, some reports said her wound was gaping.

hi wiggins
I view bury as a valid a suspect as any, and indeed more than most. But i just dont think there is enough there to conclude farmer, or mylet for that matter, as ripper victims-I only have them both at about a 20% possibility. sounds to me that farmer was stealing from the man which caused (from either herself or him) the "cut" neck.
of course both could have run a foul of the ripper, i just dont see it as likely.

[Aethelwulf]

I'm glad you bought this thread back to Farmer and Burys neck, but I would like to defend myself a little.

On the subject of the accomplices, I do find these sitings of two men suspicious, Tabram and Myletts were multiply attested. The police at the time took them seriously, and they never did find them. No I don't think it's ridiculous at all to think people are capable of deception, such things are easably obtaonable and there are many cases of murderous duos. I do get a sinister feeling around the Rose Mylett statements in particular I copied above.
We are allowed to keep an open mind?
that said agree it is speculative but I enjoy discussing it, without being called as non adult which is just silly.

On firmer ground I don't think Farmer cut her own throat, some reports said her wound was gaping.

worth a speculation. What I don't get, if I have understood this, is that the 'bill' 'catch the ship' reference seems to be at 7.55 pm. If they were catching an actual ship, what are these two doing back in the early hours (if it is the same two)? Were they actually speaking figuratively about catching one of the three ships (pub) for a booze up? I also notice one of the farmer descriptions gives the man as a sailor - i genuinely think this could be a case of the soft grey jacket, peaked cap, neck tie sailor i.e., lawende's man. Although for farmer it could just be Bury's neck tie hiding the scar that gives the sailorly impression as it was said the man had a dark coat and felt hat

Not taken on the accomplice theory. I can imagine Bury would have been out with a fellow bad egg and roughed a woman up and then gone back on his own later. I just can't see an accomplice keeping a secret like that. Overall, as there is a good chunk of missing time for Tabram and Mylett, the 'sailors' & 'soldiers' may well have nothing to do with either case.

[Mark J D]

If this attack took place around 3.30 am or 5-6 am, those that suspect Lech would be all over it like a cheap aftershave.

I think not, to be honest.

M.