Bury's Neck

Thanks, for me the nature of the mutilations to Ellen Bury along with the proximity and circumstances around Burys movements at these times.
They are enough to convince me he was the ripper.
This is mainly because of Keppel's anylasis JTR's signature, when he was asked to look at Tabram case. And Steve Earp does a great job of explaining this on his website how Keppel showed who rare this is.
Ellen should be listed as the C6th ripper victim on this website, there is no question and I wonder why she is not to be honest.

All this other stuff about Bury is gist to the mill. I love discussing it. I want to start a new thread about chalk graffiti, from going through the newspapers its all over the place not just the GSG there is another 4 instances of chalk graffiti,

But in any case on topic here
1) the only instance where a witness calls out a distingishing mark on a potential ripper suspect = (scar on the neck) = Bury (Annie Farmer)
2) the only instance where a witness calls out a name is mentioned of a potential ripper suspect - Bill (William) = Bury ( Rose Mylett)

Wulf - yes Bury did dress smart but he got pretty shabby quickly rough sleeping in the back of his cart with all the sawdust on his jaunts into whitechapel.
We know he slept rough on kitchen floors and in stables before he met Ellen.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Wiggins and Aethulwulf.

If the following description was given to you, would it fit Farmer's suspect and most of the other victims for that matter?

He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt. He walked with a shuffle and spoke in the usual fashion of the developing citizens of Whitechapel, whom, in all respects, he resembled.

Not really. This chap (Cleary is it?) sounds like a down and out that can't walk properly. Farmer's attacker and other witness statements usually imply someone respectably dressed. Farmer's attacker also out paced a pursuit and vanished. Not of the witnesses say the man had a spot/boil on his cheek.

[jerryd]

Thanks for this, the Farmer incident was the only instance were a witness describes a distingishing feature on a potential ripper suspect.
Scar or abcess on the neck.
Annie Farmer was dimissed at the time, and still is now by most, but the description of the assaliant and this feature was widley published.

People dont cut there own throats for a few coins, I am of the view that it was Bury and it was the main cause he moves out of London.

I suspected it before, as you know, becuase of this strange incident with the neckerchief, this report Mr Earp dug up seals the deal for me.

Can you upload Berry's actual description of this incident prior to the hanging, I read it years ago and cant remember where. But no worries if you dont have to hand.

Hi Wiggins and Aethulwulf.

If the following description was given to you, would it fit Farmer's suspect and most of the other victims for that matter?

He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt. He walked with a shuffle and spoke in the usual fashion of the developing citizens of Whitechapel, whom, in all respects, he resembled.

[Aethelwulf]

Thanks for this, the Farmer incident was the only instance were a witness describes a distingishing feature on a potential ripper suspect.
Scar or abcess on the neck.
Annie Farmer was dimissed at the time, and still is now by most, but the description of the assaliant and this feature was widley published.

People dont cut there own throats for a few coins, I am of the view that it was Bury and it was the main cause he moves out of London.

I suspected it before, as you know, becuase of this strange incident with the neckerchief, this report Mr Earp dug up seals the deal for me.

Can you upload Berry's actual description of this incident prior to the hanging, I read it years ago and cant remember where. But no worries if you dont have to hand.

this was the first i had heard of the collar commotion - Bury website gives sources as: (8) “The Princes Street Murder.” Dundee Courier (25 Apr. 1889).

(9) Evans, Stewart P. Executioner: Chronicles of a Victorian Hangman. Stroud: History Press (2009): 241.

Pretty surprised how easily Mr Earp dismisses this Farmer link. Could easily be confusion, and whose left are we talking about? The attacker's actual left, or maybe the left side as viewed by a witness (i.e., attacker's right)?

Like you, done deal this was Bury - but did Lech's great Aunt Fanny not own the lodging house?

Thanks for this, the Farmer incident was the only instance were a witness describes a distingishing feature on a potential ripper suspect.
Scar or abcess on the neck.
Annie Farmer was dimissed at the time, and still is now by most, but the description of the assaliant and this feature was widley published.

People dont cut there own throats for a few coins, I am of the view that it was Bury and it was the main cause he moves out of London.

I suspected it before, as you know, becuase of this strange incident with the neckerchief, this report Mr Earp dug up seals the deal for me.

Can you upload Berry's actual description of this incident prior to the hanging, I read it years ago and cant remember where. But no worries if you dont have to hand.

[Aethelwulf]

A new piece of research has been published on the Bury website and very intriguing it is too (http://williambury.org/blog6/2022/01...am-burys-neck/).

It turns out that Bury's 1884 police file records a cut on the right side of his neck as a noteworthy physical feature. It seems Bury made a great fuss about having his collar removed before his execution and Berry the hangman had to take it off him, and thought he would have hung on to it until the last. If Bury did carry a scar on his neck, this would be yet another potential point of correspondence between Bury and the FBI profile as: "he (the ripper) would be expected to have some type of physical abnormality. However, although not severe, he perceives this as being psychologically crippling”.

More interesting is the fact that Annie Farmer's attacker is noted as having a scar or abscess on the side of his neck. The author of the Bury website dismisses this link as it was stated that on Farmer's man the scar was on the left side. However, some reports give it as the back of the neck. Some reports say the man had a fair mustache (like Bury), others a dark mustache. My point is, is it totally beyond the realms of possibility that the the side of the neck the scar was on was uncertain. Someone could have misremembered or been confused. There was a fair old commotion associated with he Farmer attacker - a pursuit, punch thrown according to one witness, and a man being struck with a whip. I think it is possible. Note that most people dismiss Caroline Maxwell's stubborn statement as being mistaken about the day. Surely a mistake about which side of the neck a scar is on is feasible?

Not only does the description of the man fit with the other witnesses (he wore speckled grey trousers and neckerchief (Lawende's salt and pepper?) and hard felt)), it is a very good match for Bury. Not only in the general sense, but also in the specifics of carrying a whip (this attack was before Bury sold his horse and cart), being handy with his fists (allegedly punching one pursuer to fend him off), the man was a drinker and 'ill used' Farmer 12 months previous. 'Ill use' is the same term Ellen's sister used to tell Bury off for beating her sister up so badly she was bed ridden. 12 months previous would have been prior to Bury marrying Ellen.

''Do you know him?' and the woman answered 'I knew him about a twelvemonth ago. I drank in his company, and he made himself known to me this morning. He paid 8d for the bed and gave me 6d whilst in the room. I brought him in about 6.30, and when I was half-asleep I felt a knife cross my throat, which woke me up, and I screamed.' 'What has he done?' and she replied, 'He has cut my throat.' I asked for a light, and a woman brought a candle, for the room was very dark. I then saw that there were five or six wounds in the neck, which seemed to me to be gaping and at least 3in long. It was said that Dr Phillips stitched her throat in one report.

After the attack, a lot people got a good look at the attacker and police issued a detailed description carried by all the main papers. Shortly after, in early December, Bury sells his horse and cart and very likely abandoned Whitechapel.

Although there is no way to know for certain if the noteworthy cut turned to a scar, or even if the word 'cut' was in fact referencing a scar, Bury's seeming vanity about exposing his neck is certainly interesting and the possible link to Farmer is tantalising.