William Bury: Jack the Ripper

[Ms Diddles]

The cry of 'murder' often attributed to Kelly - the result of a brief struggle as Bury overcomes a taller (and probably heavier) victim?

It's certainly a possibility, Wulf!

[Aethelwulf]

This thread kinda picqued my interest in Bury, so I started rereading MacPherson last night.

I'd forgotten that Bury was only 5ft 3 and less than 10 stone (despite his broad shoulders / powerful chest).

That in no way rules him out as, with the possible exception of MJK, I'm sure the victims would have been quite easily overpowered if there was an element of surprise.

For some reason I'd thought Bury was a big dude.

Just shows how fallible memory is!

The cry of 'murder' often attributed to Kelly - the result of a brief struggle as Bury overcomes a taller (and probably heavier) victim?

[Ms Diddles]

This thread kinda picqued my interest in Bury, so I started rereading MacPherson last night.

I'd forgotten that Bury was only 5ft 3 and less than 10 stone (despite his broad shoulders / powerful chest).

That in no way rules him out as, with the possible exception of MJK, I'm sure the victims would have been quite easily overpowered if there was an element of surprise.

For some reason I'd thought Bury was a big dude.

Just shows how fallible memory is!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok, I've skim read a bit of MacPherson.

Apparently Ellen was employed by James Martin (who was a notorious brothel owner).

She was listed as a "domestic servant" there, but her landlady commented on the fact that she was sleeping all day and out working at night.

She ultimately confessed to her landlady that she had been employed by James Martin as a prostitute all the time she had been residing with her landlady, which included a brief period after her marriage to Bury.

It's not clear what MacPherson's source for this is, but likely it's from witness statements at Bury's trial.

Thanks Ms D. That confirms it.

[Ms Diddles]

Thanks Ms D. I’ve added Beadle to my (very long) to read list. I once saw Beadle give a talk at a Cloak & Dagger club meeting a million years ago but he wasn’t talking about Bury at the time. I seem to remember it was Kelly’s TOD. Good talk though.

Ok, I've skim read a bit of MacPherson.

Apparently Ellen was employed by James Martin (who was a notorious brothel owner).

She was listed as a "domestic servant" there, but her landlady commented on the fact that she was sleeping all day and out working at night.

She ultimately confessed to her landlady that she had been employed by James Martin as a prostitute all the time she had been residing with her landlady, which included a brief period after her marriage to Bury.

It's not clear what MacPherson's source for this is, but likely it's from witness statements at Bury's trial.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'll look out my MacPherson book when I get a moment.

My memory is completely fallible, but I'm confident that it was pretty certain that she was on the game prior to marriage.

I recall thinking that it was strange that someone in that profession would receive a substantial inheritance, implying that there was money somewhere in the family.

I want to say it was her mother who left her the money, but I may have misremembered that.

It's been a while since I read about Bury so I need to brush up too.

Thanks Ms D. I’ve added Beadle to my (very long) to read list. I once saw Beadle give a talk at a Cloak & Dagger club meeting a million years ago but he wasn’t talking about Bury at the time. I seem to remember it was Kelly’s TOD. Good talk though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock
Every bit of information on Ellen Bury suggests she was a prostitute when Bury met her. I haven't got either Beadle's or McPherson's books with me right now but both writers say this and I'm sure they back it up with sources.

Cheers John

Cheers John, I’m sure it’s true. Wiki just sowed the seed of doubt.

[Ms Diddles]

As I haven’t re-read any Bury books lately could someone confirm that Ellen had actually worked as a prostitute? I’d never rely on Wiki for anything of course but I did just notice that it only said ‘probably a prostitute’ on there. Is there confirmation of this?

I'll look out my MacPherson book when I get a moment.

My memory is completely fallible, but I'm confident that it was pretty certain that she was on the game prior to marriage.

I recall thinking that it was strange that someone in that profession would receive a substantial inheritance, implying that there was money somewhere in the family.

I want to say it was her mother who left her the money, but I may have misremembered that.

It's been a while since I read about Bury so I need to brush up too.

[John Wheat]

As I haven’t re-read any Bury books lately could someone confirm that Ellen had actually worked as a prostitute? I’d never rely on Wiki for anything of course but I did just notice that it only said ‘probably a prostitute’ on there. Is there confirmation of this?

Hi Herlock
Every bit of information on Ellen Bury suggests she was a prostitute when Bury met her. I haven't got either Beadle's or McPherson's books with me right now but both writers say this and I'm sure they back it up with sources.

Cheers John

[GBinOz]

To be honest Fogelpa there isn’t a great list of potential candidates for the witness. It’s tended to be Lawende or Schwartz. Someone else might be able to say if someone else has been suggested though. I can’t recall of the top of my head.

Welcome to Casebook by the way.

Welcome to the forum Fogelpa. Lawende and Schwartz are the popular choices. Harris is almost never mentioned but Joseph Levy was suspiciously secretive and is included in a study that proposes Joseph was a cousin of Jacob Levy, and that Joseph recognised Jacob as the man talking to the woman near the Mitre Square murder site. There is a recently published book "The Crimes of Jack the Ripper" by Paul Roland that sets out the case. There is also one other suggestion that it was an un-named PC that was the witness. The bottom line is, because of the secrecy of Anderson and Swanson, the identity of the seaside witness is pure speculation.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

The problem with Lawende as the witness is that he was later wheeled out to look at Sadler and later Grainger. Why would they have done that if he’d already identified the ripper?

Logical answer is he hadn't. It was a different witness. Logical answer isn't neccesarily correct.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're taking the bait my friend. Ignore the bait for a while and the fisher will lose interest.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Because Baron knows that, of the named suspects, I prefer Druitt. Baron has a proven obsession with me (as illustrated again here George, where on a thread about Bury he shows up and makes his ‘miles ahead of Druitt’ comment.) Obviously if Mackenzie was proven to have been a victim then Druitt would have to be dismissed as a suspect. So of course he claims it’s 100% certain that Mackenzie was a ripper victim. I’ve always admitted the possibility that he might have been but that it’s a point that’s been debated without conclusion for years. It’s par for the course with him George.

You're taking the bait my friend. Ignore the bait for a while and the fisher will lose interest.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

hey Herl
because the id at the time of koz wasnt as solid as anderson made it out to be later. theres a passage in sugden where he quotes a news article that connects the witness to an "eviscerated" victim. eddows was, stride wasnt so the witness according to the article is Lawende.
imho the koz witness was more than likely lawende.

Cheers Abby, I’ll check it out. It’s convenient because I just bought the kindle version of Sugden for easy access.

[Abby Normal]

The problem with Lawende as the witness is that he was later wheeled out to look at Sadler and later Grainger. Why would they have done that if he’d already identified the ripper?

hey Herl
because the id at the time of koz wasnt as solid as anderson made it out to be later. theres a passage in sugden where he quotes a news article that connects the witness to an "eviscerated" victim. eddows was, stride wasnt so the witness according to the article is Lawende.
imho the koz witness was more than likely lawende.