Subterfuge

[GUT]

G'Day

When a criminal trial "today" is based on identification evidence the Judge MUST give a warning that identification evidence is notoriously unreliable. Try it for yourself, go for a walk with two or three friends then just after you pass someone that might be noticeable because of what they are doing or how they are dressed, all of you describe the person. You will be shocked how far apart the descriptions are.

GUT

[GUT]

Why is JtR from Stourbridge

G'Day Ashkenaz

Can you explain why you say "in Stourbridge,JtR’s hometown"? Why do you say that Jacky was from Stourbridge? Are you reasoning in reverse? Because you think Bury is Jack is Bury is Jack and Bury is from Stourbridge then Jacky must be from Stourbridge.

Please Explain!

GUT

[curious4]

Writing hands

I have just finished Beadle's JtR Unmasked, and was struck by something Ellen's sister said of Bury. He ' could write [in] several hands' p 228. Meaning of course, he was something of a forger.

Perhaps he was also practiced in subterfuge.

We have good descriptions of JrR from people who are unlikely to ever forget him. Ada Wilson, who saw him from 6 feet away demanding money in her home, he went on to knife her twice in the throat. Thankfully she survived.

J. Best and John Gardner who were eyeballing him in The Bricklayers Arms , as he sweet talked with Liz Stride. They were trying to goad him into a fight, the way that cowards do, in drink. JtR thought the better of it, and decided to leave with Liz instead. He and they were probably feet apart, they way that belligerent men are.

Ada Wilson says the man who tried to kill her had a fair moustache, while J Best and John Gardner inform us it was black. And these people had a marvellous view of the fiend.

How curious.

What then, are we so make of this, on page 131 his moustache is said to be black. At page 136 it’s brown. At page 144 and page 77 it is fair. While at page 184 it is carroty, meaning perhaps ginger.

Is JtR altering his whiskers/hair colour prior to an assault, in case he finds a suitable victim, and hence, wrong foot any witnesses ? He knew he would not always stumble upon an isolated victim, as we see at the Bricklayers Arms.

More subterfuge - we have discrepancy regarding his complexion too. We are told on p133, p124,p125 p134 and p 133 that it was dark. On p136, p144 and p77 that his complexion was fair. We are told by p184 that it was fresh, whatever that means. Is he using make up to alter his appearance ?

And there’s more. He is described as 25 years of age on p133. On p136 it is 30. Then 36 at p184. By p132 he is middle aged. Is he using make up to age himself prior to an assault , whitening his hair at the temples perhaps ? Maybe walking with a slight stoop, to make age seem plausible?

And here we read that his build was medium [Sugden p247]. Broad shouldered p136. Rather stout p132. Padding perhaps, or some other theatrical trickery ?

And here we read his height was reported as 5’ 7-8” on page p144 and p133. 5’5” on p136 &p183. A little taller than the deceased who was 5’0” on p124 &p125. So he appears to have grown several inches in as many months.

Perhaps he was a little self conscious about his height, and had made up shoes to add another 4-5”. Some short people do this, maybe JtR was one of them. This might of given the idea of disguise in the first place.

I think JtR was only too aware that a good description of him would lead to the scaffold. And he likely did resorted to all the above. It would explain partially why he did not go home immediately after an attack. He needed time in the killing zone disguised as just another East Ender,to conceal his mania/raving, as we have read, and also time to deal with his theatrical accoutrements, he did not need Ellen asking awkward questions.

This is for anyone from the Bury school. What do you think ?

Hello Ash,

Bury may very well have been a forger, but "writing several hands" would refer to him being a well-trained office clerk and being able to write in several handstyles, just as you can choose different ways of writing on your computer, italic, gothic and so on. There was, for example, a special handwriting for legal papers.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_kw=VICTORIAN+Old+BUSINESS+GUIDE+Book+1897+Penmanship+Calligraphy+LETTER-WRITING+Law

This link should lead to pictures of books used to teach the different handstyles.

Best wishes,
C4

[Mrsperfect]

Ada Wilson - JtR Victim?

G'day

I have always believed Ada Wilson was a victim of Bury. If you believe Bury was JtR, then Ada Wilson was probably a JtR victim.

I would be staggered if it could be proven that JtR had 'built up' shoes when he committed any murders. How could he make a quick getaway if he was stumbling all over the place?

Bury liked to dress up when he had the money to buy nice clothes, (remember Dundee). Perhaps he wore built up shoes at those times? I doubt it, since no one ever mentioned this ......and from memory I cannot ever remember any man wearing built up shoes on both feet. Perhaps on one foot to correct an imbalance, but not two!

Bury did work outdoors when he first came to London, (before he paid someone to do his rounds) so sunburn is not out of the question. The fact that he was spotted on 28th March with sunburn would rule this out as the weather is rather cold then. Add this to the fact we know he was working on deliveries to pubs etc and not in a foundry. Perhaps it was drink that gave him the 'flush' complexion or even the medical condition rosacea?

I'm not sure about the disguises, but I wouldn't put it past him!

Regards

Eileen

[Ashkenaz]

Hello Ashkenaz.

"Jtr is described by Best and Gardener two labourers, with “sore eyes without any eyelashes”"

Wasn't aware that B & G had described JTR--just a bloke they claimed was with Liz.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynne
Have you read chapter seven ?

[Ashkenaz]

G'Day Ashkenaz

Can you explain why you say "in Stourbridge,JtR’s hometown"? Why do you say that Jacky was from Stourbridge? Are you reasoning in reverse? Because you think Bury is Jack is Bury is Jack and Bury is from Stourbridge then Jacky must be from Stourbridge.

Please Explain!

GUT

Read Jack the Ripper Unmasked by William Beadle, chapter three.

" The man who became a myth was born in the market town of Stourbridge" p33

This post is for those who believe Bury to be JtR.

[Ashkenaz]

Hello Ash,

Bury may very well have been a forger, but "writing several hands" would refer to him being a well-trained office clerk and being able to write in several handstyles, just as you can choose different ways of writing on your computer, italic, gothic and so on. There was, for example, a special handwriting for legal papers.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_kw=VICTORIAN+Old+BUSINESS+GUIDE+Book+1897+Penmanship+Calligraphy+LETTER-WRITING+Law

This link should lead to pictures of books used to teach the different handstyles.

Best wishes,
C4

He also forged a pretend letter offering himself work in Dundee. This is forgery.

[Ashkenaz]

G'Day

When a criminal trial "today" is based on identification evidence the Judge MUST give a warning that identification evidence is notoriously unreliable. Try it for yourself, go for a walk with two or three friends then just after you pass someone that might be noticeable because of what they are doing or how they are dressed, all of you describe the person. You will be shocked how far apart the descriptions are.

GUT

These two did a little more that walk past our man in the street . They and he, were drinking in a pub. They might of been in there for half an hour. They were annoyed by him, perhaps because her could afford her services, or perhaps because, he that the knack of amusing women. They tried to start a fight with him. All this, at close range. This is perhaps the best description we will ever get of Stride's killer.

I believe that this was her killer. She died that evening.

[lynn cates]

inquest

Hello Ashkenaz. Thanks.

Chapter seven of what? Most of my reading is from the inquest--I have little time for theorists.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'Day Ashkenaz

Two points if I may

This post is for those who believe Bury to be JtR.

I thought it was for anyone with an interest in Jack not just those who believe Bury was Jack, and thus you contention that Stourbridge was JtR's hometown s not correct. Prove Jack was from Stourbrdge and my interest in Bury will go through the roof.

Quote:

These two did a little more that walk past our man in the street . They and he, were drinking in a pub. They might of been in there for half an hour.

On everything I've seen and I may be wrong, they also might have been in there for 5 minutes or 5 hours. It doesn't make their ID any stronger.

I'll also suggest if you like that you amend my earlier suggested experiment and get three friends to describe a mutual acquaintance again you will find a wide discrepancy.

Thanks

GUT

GUT

[Ashkenaz]

Hello Ashkenaz. Thanks.

Chapter seven of what? Most of my reading is from the inquest--I have little time for theorists.

Cheers.
LC

Jack the Ripper unmasked by William Beadle.

[Ashkenaz]

G'Day Ashkenaz

Two points if I may
I thought it was for anyone with an interest in Jack

The general forum is for anyone with an interest in Jack.

But this particular spot is for those with a particular interest in Bury. It is labelled as [suspects] and
[Bury, W.H.]. I have even drawn attention to that.

If you do not suspect Bury, maybe you could try another suspect.[/QUOTE]




[QUOTE=GUT;284250]

On everything I've seen and I may be wrong, they also might have been in there for 5 minutes or 5 hours. It doesn't make their ID any stronger.
[QUOTE=GUT;284250]

I disagree. Both these men had a good look at Liz Strides and her man friend. As you say, he could have been in the same room for five hours. In addition, there was friction between them and this man, they were trying to start a fight with him. I think their description of him is very good. The witness even remarked upon the little flower, in the woman’s dress.

I'll also suggest if you like that you amend my earlier suggested experiment and get three friends to describe a mutual acquaintance again you will find a wide discrepancy.

Thanks

GUT

GUT

If I walked straight past someone in the street I would hardly notice them. Why would I ?

However, if I shared a few hours in the same room, and there was a couple getting [amorous] page 103.
After drawing attention to themselves in this way, I think I would given a much better description of them.

So thanks, but I don’t think I’ll bother with your experiment.

[GUT]

G'Day Ashkenaz

You know the experiment I suggest has been done many times, the results always the same you can't trust eyewitness testimony.

Read a good Criminal Law textbook. Judges MUST give juries warnings that identification evidence is unreliable.

Just because it is a thread on Bury doesn't mean I have to agree it was him.

Your early post to which I was replying said:

This post is for those who believe Bury to be JtR.

Sorry but I'll post on here if I agree he was Jacky or if I disagree with that proposition.


GUT

[johns]

GUT.

A number of us, including myself, who frequent this part of the Casebook forum believe that Bury was Jack the Ripper and that he was born in Stourbridge in 1859. His birthplace is a fact and I've stood outside that birthplace.

You are quite welcome to post on here or anywhere regarding Bury and whether or not he was Jack.

Regards
John

[GUT]

G'Day John

I actually have an open mind it was the comment that

This post is for those who believe Bury to be JtR.

"Got up my nose"

GUT