Bury - the cellar

[Cogidubnus]

As regards Bury I'm something of a beginner...However, having had a go at Macpherson, (and still not being that much wiser), where exactly please was that cellar entrance...

The press (such as is reported) suggests it was at the rear of the buildings, externally available, at a low level, open to literally anyone, even those who couldn't access the flat itself...viz anybody...

Is there any other evidence whatever to suggest the chalk messages belonged sprcifically to the crime?

All the best

Dave

[Wyatt Earp]

Is there any other evidence whatever to suggest the chalk messages belonged sprcifically to the crime?

Dave, the Princes Street chalkings are wholly a mystery. We do not know who wrote the messages or why they were written. There is no proof that they are connected to Ellen's murder. We can speculate about who wrote them and why they were written, and some of those speculations are I think more reasonable than others, but in the end it is all speculation.

[EddieX]

Is there any other evidence whatever to suggest the chalk messages belonged sprcifically to the crime?

A bizarre coincidence if they didn't.

[johns]

As regards Bury I'm something of a beginner...However, having had a go at Macpherson, (and still not being that much wiser), where exactly please was that cellar entrance...

The press (such as is reported) suggests it was at the rear of the buildings, externally available, at a low level, open to literally anyone, even those who couldn't access the flat itself...viz anybody...

Is there any other evidence whatever to suggest the chalk messages belonged sprcifically to the crime?

All the best

Dave

Hi

I don't know if you've seen my post in another Bury thread, but I'll stick it here anyway. These are my potential candidates for who wrote the graffiti at 113 Princes Street, Dundee.

1) A person who didn't know the occupant had just moved there from London, and just happened to write amazingly coincidental graffiti
2) A person who DID know the occupant had just moved there from London... and suspected or knew he was Jack the Ripper
3) Ellen
4) Bury himself

My money has always been on Bury

Regards
John

[Cogidubnus]

A bizarre coincidence if they didn't.

But if they're in a semi public area, available to all and sundry, I can easily imagine in the hours following the discovery of the body, the local ragamuffins scrawling such messages to frighten their younger siblings etc etc...crime scenes weren't so jealously preserved in the LVP, which is why I was attempting to ascertain just how available the cellar entrance was...

All the best

Dave

[Wyatt Earp]

But if they're in a semi public area, available to all and sundry, I can easily imagine in the hours following the discovery of the body, the local ragamuffins scrawling such messages to frighten their younger siblings etc etc...

The chalkings were there the night police arrived at the residence and examined it (Beadle, 2009, p. 247). Unless one is going to speculate that schoolboys chalked the messages while the police were there, they were chalked prior to Bury's arrest and not in the aftermath of it.

[John Wheat]

I think it's highly likely that the chalked messages were written by either Bury or his wife Ellen.

[Cogidubnus]

Ponderings

The real crime scene would be perceived to be inside...I don't suppose for a moment the police immediately cleared the idlers and bystanders away from outside...the police attitude seems to have been different to what pertains now...we see this with the spectators surrounding the scenes of the Whitechapel crimes...from the two slaughtermen who arrive and look on as Dr Llewellyn checks out Polly Nicholls body, to the masses who turn out and surround the entrance to Millers Court...and we see it most clearly in the fact that the Dundee Advertiser reporter was able to walk right round the exterior of Princes Street, and virtually press his nose to the glass trying to see into the flat...

So in the circumstances I wouldn't be that surprised if some graffiti appeared...unless of course someone can categorically declare that the cellar entrance was inaccessible until the graffiti were discovered...

I have yet to read Beadle so don't know what he asserts on Page 247, (or from what source). However, per Macpherson, the Dundee Advertiser from Tuesday 12th February implies that the graffiti was newly discovered...it will be recalled the body was discovered Sunday evening...

If Beadle contradicts this authoritatively, of course, then so be it, but I'd have thought a newspaper would be first to make a sensationalist claim...the Advertiser, however, whilst averring that the graffiti predated the discovery of the body, then diminished it's importance by attributing the writing to a boy...clearly either that paper didn't rate the chalk message as more than graffiti, or consciously eschewed sensationalism...

Either way, whether the chalk messages predated or postdated the body's discovery, there seems to me precious little evidence to attribute them to Bury...and (in the light of Ellen Bury's clear difficulty with reading and writing) even less so to his wife.

Incidentally, in my reading of the MacPherson book I've found the absence of indexing a distinct handicap, and the dearth of detailed references a little surprising. I was aware that David Green had produced an index, but thought that after this time interval, there probably would be none left. Imagine my surprise to be contacted yesterday by David and offered one of the last survivors absolutely gratis. I felt I had to express my gratitude at such a very generous gesture. Thanks indeed David...

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

which is why I was attempting to ascertain just how available the cellar entrance was...

I have a copy of the report which mentions where the graffiti is so i suppose we need to scrutinise that. I dont know where Beadles's source is but next week when im back home i will scan and attach advertiser report if noone else does so first. If we had a plan of the flat as well of course I think between us we should be able to work it out but im not usre how you could obtain this.

[EddieX]

The chalkings were there the night police arrived at the residence and examined it (Beadle, 2009, p. 247). Unless one is going to speculate that schoolboys chalked the messages while the police were there, they were chalked prior to Bury's arrest and not in the aftermath of it.

I had understood that to be the case.

[Cogidubnus]

Covering all bases

The chalkings were there the night police arrived at the residence and examined it (Beadle, 2009, p. 247)

I'm not knocking Wyatt here, or even targeting him for a response, but the Beadle book doesn't appear on my (necessarily limited) JtR budget until next month, and even then it may be knocked back if something else crops up...

I'd be the first to admit that over the years I've neglected Bury...something I'm attempting to remedy now...but in the interim can anybody please tell me exactly what Beadle actually does say?

All the best

Dave

[jason_c]

I don't think this helps much but here's the back of no.185 Princes Street. I can't get a larger version of the picture, sorry.

[Cogidubnus]

Thanks for that Jason...

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

Dave/ anyone interested

i attach the snippet from the dundee advertiser feb 12 1889 which is the only source i know of that describes the location of the graffiti (in case you not already have read this).

[Cogidubnus]

Thanks for that Boggles...I've read the quote of course but not seen the full cutting before...as I said elsewhere the reproduction handwriting from the cellar door doesn't much resemble Bury's confession, (nor does it, in it's spelling and lamentable lack of the definite article, bring to mind that surprisingly well written piece).

I guess the point on which I was seeking elucidation has been indirectly answered...the cellar entrance was available to all and sundry... whether the graffiti were there before the denouement (in which case they could have been a mischievous jibe by local wags against a couple fresh from London) or appeared after (in which case they could be speculation by the local ragamuffins), they could easily have been written by just about anybody...not just William or Ellen...

I'm afraid I still haven't got round to Beadle, so could someone please advise if he has anything germane to offer?

By the by...please don't read into this I'm dismissing Bury as a suspect...I'm not...IMHO he's far more interesting than many I've seen promoted!

All the best

Dave