William Bury the Whitechapel Murderer ?

[johns]

Welcome guys to the Bury threads.

Hey Roy... from what date would you say that sign was?

[Roy Corduroy]

John, my best guess is the sign dates from 1900-1965 when it was the Metropolitan Borough of Poplar.
Here's a Flickr page with photos of road signs in Bow. (click here)

Roy

[curious]

Hi Curious and Anna and a warm welcome to you both-

I recommend a new book on this subject The Trial of Jack the Ripper by Euan Macpherson. The author makes a good case for Bury also being the Whitechapel fiend. Not only because he killed his wife, there's more than that. He descibes a scenario which unfolds. I don't want to give it away, though.

It was a very reasonable price at amazon. Only $3 plus freight. So you might want to give it a try.

Again, welcome to the discussion group,

Roy

Thanks for the welcome, Roy.

Just beginning to explore.

Just a quick question about the book -- does the writer tie in Bury's seeming to expand his business (new business cards, and a business address) with the newly acquired items of some of the victims?

Thanks,

Velma

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Vel, no connection to his business with items from the victims.

Roy

[miss_anna]

Hi Curious and Anna and a warm welcome to you both-

I recommend a new book on this subject The Trial of Jack the Ripper by Euan Macpherson. The author makes a good case for Bury also being the Whitechapel fiend. Not only because he killed his wife, there's more than that. He descibes a scenario which unfolds. I don't want to give it away, though.

It was a very reasonable price at amazon. Only $3 plus freight. So you might want to give it a try.

Again, welcome to the discussion group,

Roy

Hi Roy and thanks for the Welcome!
I'm sure that book would certainly be a lot more reality orientated than the nonsensical money making stuff that the ripper industry has spewed out! We have to admit that if a mean spirited drunk and common criminal like Bury is the ripper the jtr cult would implode immediately! The people going on the ripper tours want entertainment! A horrific royal scandal or a fiendish mad hatter!
A ripper tour presenting Bury and Klosowski as prime suspects and sticking to facts and comparisons with other serial killers will not make the money that other ripper tours would make!

[curious]

Roy,
I "latched on" to Bury as my favorite suspect early on.

I can't get away from the fact that Polly Nichols had a new hat, Annie Chapman had recently acquired rings (that were stolen when she was killed), and Liz Stride had a large new piece of green velvet and a flower on her busom. Too much to be coincidential I feel.

What if the recently acquired items were not gifts, but were "purchased" from a hawker?

In a biography of Bury on this site, written by Mrs. Perfect, Bury is mentioned as selling pencils and trinkets at one point in his life.

He was supposed to be hawking sawdust in Whitechapel, but seemed to be spending his time more in the pubs, neglecting his sawdust business.

Well, just before going to the races, he did things that makes it appear that he was expanding his business. (could have been for show perhaps, flashing his wife's money, but . . . )

He had business cards made up.

He also appeared to have taken an "office" because his business address on the card was different from the residence address (I'm not sure what the foundation for this is. More research required on my part) So, Bury had somewhere to hide his trophies. Somewhere the wife wouldn't know what was going on with him. And he was already staying out overnight, sometimes for a couple of days, or so I've read here somewhere.

With his sawdust business locating him in White Chapel and the liklihood of his stabling his cart and pony there while he drank, he had reason and time to explore. That also gave him a base to "sleep off" his drunks, carry clean clothes, the items he was selling, etc. or he could clean up after one of the murders. He had become part of the landscape there and would not be noticable, spending the night after too much drinking. Just the usual.

So, what if he was expanding his business to include trinkets and furbelows which he was hawking there in Whitechapel? He had access to enough money to purchase the items to sell.

Can't you just see him flattering Polly Nichols with the hat: "It's you, love. Can't see anyone else in that."

Even if she couldn't pay, well, "take it, love. You're good for it." wink

Money's not the only way for a prostitute to pay for an item . . . not with what seems to have been Bury's reputation already.

"But this has to be our little secret. You can't tell anyone or I'd never make another penny."

Without there being a reason for Polly not to tell, I think if the hat had been a gift from a man, likely everyone would have known.

So, Polly had her jolly bonnet. Annie Chapman had her rings, etc.

He knew the victims, they knew (and therefore trusted) him.

That even explains the drunk arguing with Liz Stride after she'd told him, "No, not tonight. Another night."

Even though he manhandled here, she wasn't afraid of him and didn't cry loudly for help. She knew him, she'd just done business with him. He'd thrown in the flower after she bought the velvet.

Any thoughts on this scenerio?

[johns]

Hi curious

First of all I'm a Buryite. I've researched this guy myself, found a few new snippets out about him and walked the streets where he lived in London and Stourbridge. Just saying that upfront so you don't think I'm just having a bash at you.

You say "With his sawdust business locating him in White Chapel". Sadly there isn't any evidence of this. It's only a 45 minute walk and less by horse and cart so there is the strong possibility he frequented Whitechapel for the pubs, ladies and very occasional bit of sawdust selling, but no hard evidence of this. Damn eh...

He may have tried to expand his sawdust empire and flog a trinket or 2 as well but it's speculation really.

As for him buying the ladies trinkets and such like... yes I could see it happening. It's a possible. However I really see Bury blowing any money he has on booze.

So... what points you towards Bury rather than the other suspects?

John

[curious]

Bury's background, the kind of man he appears to have been, his size, just what he was more than any of the others.

The more I read, the more dots connect with him and they don't connect at all with the other named suspects.

But, didn't I read somewhere that he bought the pony and cart to hawk sawdust in Whitechapel?

I'm sure I've seen that.

And I know that as a recent arrival to interest in JTR (and it's not likely to be sustained very long) I'm not as secure in the facts as many of you are.

[Sam Flynn]

Bury's background, the kind of man he appears to have been, his size, just what he was more than any of the others.

More than the other "usual suspects", perhaps - but there were tens of thousands of similar characters in the East End at the time whose stories we don't know, several of whom could have been more likely "Rippers" than Bury.

[johns]

We know he bought the pony and cart to hawk sawdust but I don't think Whitechapel was mentioned anywhere as a specific target area. Very possible though.

At one point a year or so ago I had a list of every pub and butcher shop in the East of London and I was going to attempt some kind of map, but sadly I haven't got that project off the ground yet what with work, life etc getting in the way.

My theory is you see that there were more of these establishments in Whitechapel than where Bury lived, and this would have given him more reason to travel Westwards than ply his trade round his own locale. Not much of a theory, but to me at least it would provide a reason for him to learn the streets there.

Wouldn't have proved anything though. Nothing much does or will prove anything in JtR land.

John

[ianincleveland]

Ive voted a 6 in the poll as i think hes an above average candidate,ive just actually finished the McPherson book(was in my local library).My main argument against Bury is the amount of plannng he did in killing his wife,taking her to Dundee and keeping her away from other people.that doesnt to me sound like JTRs modus operandi.

Also according to McPherson Berry the hangman isnt that reliable a witness as sadly he became an alcoholic,and apparently toured the country protesting against the death penalty to anyone whod listen

However it seems he was in the East End at the time,and he cut his wifes throat and slashed her abdomen.

Good suspect but McPhersons book,though a good one didnt convince me that Bury was guilty beyond reasonable doubt

[DVV]

Bury is a very good suspect.
The problem is that we hardly imagine Jack going to the station as Bury did - with his pitiful story...
But who knows ?

Amitiés,
David

[curious]

My main argument against Bury is the amount of plannng he did in killing his wife,taking her to Dundee and keeping her away from other people.that doesnt to me sound like JTRs modus operandi.

I'm not convinced that Bury intended to kill his wife when they left London. It's possible he was trying to get the heck out of dodge because things were getting too hot for him.

If he had left London in order to dispose of her, he could have pushed her overboard on the ferry . . . so much easier and he was less likely to have been caught.

I believe the decision to kill her was made in Dundee. I'm not sure why.

Since he bought the rope to strangle her, the murder appears to have been premeditated.

But they were drinking. I suspect that Bury was having blackout periods.

In Dundee, Bury had no where to go and no money. It was in a strange land and therefore out of his element.

Plus, I think that his mind had completely snapped by the time he went to the police and told them she had committed suicide.

While that does sound completely crazy, perhaps he was accustomed to spinning yarns to the police and had always been believed in the past??

I like Bury for Jack -- supposing of course that I'm considering that the women were all, or most all, killed by the same hand.

I've made no real decision in my own head about that.

curious

[johns]

Bury is a very good suspect.
The problem is that we hardly imagine Jack going to the station as Bury did - with his pitiful story...
But who knows ?

Amitiés,
David

I've always thought that if Bury had been arrested for Ellen's death after a regular investigation instead of his lame explanation of her suicide, we wouldn't all be here now really.

...and if he hadn't been prosecuted for being JtR back then in Dundee for whatever reason, then we would have him as the only viable suspect now.

[Lord-z]

I don't think that he was the Ripper. I think he was afraid of being accused of being the Ripper, after the murder. But the whole thing doesn't really match Jacks MO, strangling, stabbing and trying to hide his crime. Jack was a mutilator. That was how he got his jollies. If he was Jack, alone with a woman, having the whole night and whole day, as much time as he would ever need, he would have gone to town. Just thrown off all inhibitions, cut until there was nothing left to cut. Worse than Kelly. Then, he would have shut the door behind him, and quietly disappeared from history. Instead, he tried to hide her and went to the police. That just doesn't fit Jack.