Was William Bury a Mason?

[Abby Normal]

That’s so weird he would even bring up the ripper in this case, especially since he was trying to say she committed suicide!

[John Wheat]

That’s so weird he would even bring up the ripper in this case, especially since he was trying to say she committed suicide!

For me it's one of the many things that point to Bury being the Ripper Abby.

[Sam Flynn]

That’s so weird he would even bring up the ripper in this case, especially since he was trying to say she committed suicide!

Because, whether she committed suicide or not, he was the obvious suspect for having inflicted the post mortem wounds. There was also the "JTR is in this seller" graffiti to consider.

[Abby Normal]

Because, whether she committed suicide or not, he was the obvious suspect for having inflicted the post mortem wounds. There was also the "JTR is in this seller" graffiti to consider.

yes, or could be case of "I think thou dost protest too much".

[Wyatt Earp]

A drunken Bury babbled something about him being afraid of being seen as a Ripper at the time he went to the police about his wife's death.

John, I’m not sure what source you’re using for that, but according to the trial notes, Parr testified that Bury was “quite sober and apparently sensible” when he spoke to him.

Because, whether she committed suicide or not, he was the obvious suspect for having inflicted the post mortem wounds. There was also the "JTR is in this seller" graffiti to consider.

It’s interesting that Bury seems to have told Parr that he feared being identified as the Ripper simply because of the presence of a strangled body, and that he took his knife to the body subsequent to having that fear. This is Parr’s testimony from Lord Young’s trial notes: “That on getting up in morning he found his wife lying on the floor dead and a rope about her neck. That he got frightened that he would be apprehended as Jack the Ripper and he cut up the body and packed it in a box where it was still to be found.” The trial transcript from the Dundee Courier and Argus seems to confirm this sequence. “On getting up in the morning he found his wife lying on the floor dead and a rope round her neck; and then he said he got frightened that he would be apprehended as “Jack the Ripper,” and then he cut up the body and packed it in a box where it was still to be found.”

[curious]

That’s an excellent point, curious. Bury does seem to have been something of a show-off on that trip to Wolverhampton.



I don’t think this is a realistic possibility. Bury went to the police and tried to sell them a b.s. story about what happened. He was trying to escape from the jam that he was in. It would not have made sense for him to mislead the police into thinking that he could be the Ripper, as that would have increased their suspicion of him, not reduced it.

Other things that point to his need to be perceived as "someone" include getting Ellen to purchase a pony and cart for his "business" when he appears to have mostly used it to get to his drinking establishments, wanting to appear as a "businessman", dressing well, changing clothes during the course of the day -- everything was about appearance.

For the second part, I agree with you that initially Bury was attempting to "con" the police. BTW, there are several ways to interpret his meanderings and dragging the Ripper into the conversation.

However, if the conversation with the hangman James Berry actually took place . . . If he was going to hang, why not go out as the Ripper?

Just my musings

curious

[curious]

I wouldn't use the word "obsessed," Abby, but he was clearly concerned about being suspected when he interacted with Lt. Parr.

Why bring it up in the first place? Ah, now I see this has already been discussed. I tend to answer first then continue reading . . .

If he were just a drunken wife killer, why cut her up?

If he had awakened and found his wife dead, would not the first inclination to be to run screaming for help? Or would you just take out your knife and maybe poke her a little to see if she might still be alive?

curious

[Wyatt Earp]

However, if the conversation with the hangman James Berry actually took place . . . If he was going to hang, why not go out as the Ripper?

Well, what James Berry said is that Bury told him because you are to hang me, you'll get nothing out of me (or words to that effect). How about that for an explanation?

[Wyatt Earp]

If he had awakened and found his wife dead, would not the first inclination to be to run screaming for help? Or would you just take out your knife and maybe poke her a little to see if she might still be alive?

We know for a fact that Bury lied to the police about what happened, which is yet another reason to regard the suggestion that Ellen committed suicide as the comical suggestion that it is. As we've seen in what I've reported of Parr's testimony, Bury told Parr that he cut Ellen's body after waking up in the morning and discovering her dead, but the medical testimony at Bury's trial indicated that all but a couple of the mutilations were actually inflicted close to the time of death.

[Sam Flynn]

Bury told Parr that he cut Ellen's body after waking up in the morning and discovering her dead, but the medical testimony at Bury's trial indicated that all but a couple of the mutilations were actually inflicted close to the time of death.

Nothing particularly laughable about that, if Ellen's suicide happened within an hour or so before Bury woke up.

[Wyatt Earp]

Nothing particularly laughable about that, if Ellen's suicide happened within an hour or so before Bury woke up.

In their medical report Templeman and Stalker wrote this about Ellen Bury’s mutilations: “The edges of the wounds above described were everted and marked throughout by a line of capillary haemorhage, and we are therefore of opinion that they must have been inflicted during life or very shortly after death, while the body still retained its warmth and vital elasticity.” Do you find it believable that during this brief window of time, Bury not only managed to awaken, but upon seeing his wife lying dead with a rope around her neck—with no cut throat, and with no mutilations at that point, mind you—he was immediately swept over with the fear that he would be apprehended as Jack the Ripper, and having thus become afraid that he would be identified as Jack, he then immediately went for his knife and proceeded to mutilate Ellen’s genitals and cut open her abdomen? I should think it’s obvious that Bury lied to Parr about what happened.

[curious]

Well, what James Berry said is that Bury told him because you are to hang me, you'll get nothing out of me (or words to that effect). How about that for an explanation?

It could point to him planting an idea in Berry's mind -- which he succeeded in doing.

As I mentioned, while Bury is probably my favorite suspect, I always have the thought in the back of my mind that he was "working" Berry.

[curious]

In their medical report Templeman and Stalker wrote this about Ellen Bury’s mutilations: “The edges of the wounds above described were everted and marked throughout by a line of capillary haemorhage, and we are therefore of opinion that they must have been inflicted during life or very shortly after death, while the body still retained its warmth and vital elasticity.” Do you find it believable that during this brief window of time, Bury not only managed to awaken, but upon seeing his wife lying dead with a rope around her neck—with no cut throat, and with no mutilations at that point, mind you—he was immediately swept over with the fear that he would be apprehended as Jack the Ripper, and having thus become afraid that he would be identified as Jack, he then immediately went for his knife and proceeded to mutilate Ellen’s genitals and cut open her abdomen? I should think it’s obvious that Bury lied to Parr about what happened.

I agree with you. I firmly believe that Bury lied to Parr. I firmly believe that Bury killed Ellen. I don't think there was ever any real questions in hardly anyone's mind.

The fact that he immediately mutilated her points to his being the Ripper -- as I see things. I believe the reason she was less mutilated than the other victims was because she was his wife and because perhaps he came to himself and realized that he would be recognized as the Ripper.

In my opinion, it is also because she was his wife that he hung around for a week trying to weigh his options.

If Bury was Jack the Ripper, then:
a. he had already left one country to attempt to get away from talk of the Ripper. Unfortunately, even in a different country, the Ripper was a topic of conversation.

b. The Ripper was able to go undetected because he could walk away from his victims and they were not associated with him in any known way.

c. However, now that he had murdered his wife, that anonymity was gone.

d. Because the Ripper was known in a different country, and now Ellen was tied directly to him, Bury did not think he could re-locate without being found. (This is one place his believing himself to be more prominent than he actually was worked against him.) In Bury's mind, now that people knew who the Ripper was, there would be no place to hide.

Anyway, it took him a week to come up with the lame action he finally settled on as the least bad of a bad lot of options and go to the police.

To me,the timing of the mutilations is quite telling as it suggests that he mutilated by reflex, managing to stop himself and pull back.

curious

[Sam Flynn]

Do you find it believable that during this brief window of time, Bury not only managed to awaken, but upon seeing his wife lying dead with a rope around her neck [...] he then immediately went for his knife and proceeded to mutilate Ellen’s genitals and cut open her abdomen?

It's possible (BTW, he did not "cut open her abdomen" - her abdominal wounds were minor). I should say that I think it probable that Bury did indeed murder (i.e. strangle, as opposed to almost-decapitate and then eviscerate) Ellen, but to dismiss alternative scenarios as comical/laughable strikes me a desperate desire to quash any counter-argument that would militate against his being the Ripper. He wasn't, of course, not least because Ellen was by no stretch of the imagination "ripped", when Bury had every opportunity to do so.

[curious]

He wasn't, of course, not least because Ellen was by no stretch of the imagination "ripped", when Bury had every opportunity to do so.

I can't help wondering what explanation you have for him taking a knife to her at all?

Let's say they were arguing and he grabbed her by the throat in a drunken rage -- then why use a knife on her at all?

How do you see this playing out?

BTW, the big trunks Bury had constructed? I realize some people point to them as evidence he planned to kill Ellen and they were intended for her body. I don't think believe that.

I see the extra large trunks as more of Bury's misleading people about their wealth and position in life. The large trunks were to impress people with how much he and Ellen owned so that they needed trunks that big for their belongings. . .

So, why did Bury take a knife to Ellen?

Thanks,

curious