Ellen Bury's Murder

[John Wheat]

As people on other threads keep going on about how the Torso Killers murders are similar to Jack when they clearly aren't. It's time to point out that Ellen Bury's murder is far more similar to any of the Torso Killers murder. What with strangulation with a ligature followed by post mortem mutilation compared to dismemberment and missing heads.

[kjab3112]

Although even with the Jack Ripper is behind this door graffiti, there are still big disimillarities

1. Although probably strangled (or otherwise incapacitated), there is no definite ligature mentioned with Jack. Bury used a rope

2. Jack seems to commit a coup de grace throat cut prior to starting his mutilation. Bury moved straight on to cutting

3. Bury used a large pen knife. Jack's was likely a much larger blade

Regards

Paul

[Fisherman]

Although even with the Jack Ripper is behind this door graffiti, there are still big disimillarities

1. Although probably strangled (or otherwise incapacitated), there is no definite ligature mentioned with Jack. Bury used a rope

2. Jack seems to commit a coup de grace throat cut prior to starting his mutilation. Bury moved straight on to cutting

3. Bury used a large pen knife. Jack's was likely a much larger blade

Regards

Paul

4. The torso killer ( and Jack) took out organs. Bury didn´t.

5. The torso killer ( and Jack) was deemed a skilled knifesman. Bury wasn´t.

This will either be a very repetitive or very short thread, methinks.

Goodnight.

[John Wheat]

Although even with the Jack Ripper is behind this door graffiti, there are still big disimillarities

1. Although probably strangled (or otherwise incapacitated), there is no definite ligature mentioned with Jack. Bury used a rope

2. Jack seems to commit a coup de grace throat cut prior to starting his mutilation. Bury moved straight on to cutting

3. Bury used a large pen knife. Jack's was likely a much larger blade

Regards

Paul

1. It is highly likely Jack used a ligature.

2. It's true Bury didn't cut Ellen's throat but there is no diffinitive evidence that The Torso victims had their throats cut in the same way Jack did. They may for instance have all been killed by decapitation or the dismemberment might have killed them.

3. We don't know what knife Jack used. The penknife might have been the only knife Jack/Bury had in Dundee.

[John Wheat]

4. The torso killer ( and Jack) took out organs. Bury didn´t.

5. The torso killer ( and Jack) was deemed a skilled knifesman. Bury wasn´t.

This will either be a very repetitive or very short thread, methinks.

Goodnight.

4. Only in one case did the Torso killer definitively take out organs.

5. There is no common consensus as to Jack's skill with a knife. Bury was at one point a horse meat butcher. Which might have meant Bury was quite skilled with a knife.

As for your last point you really are full of it.

[kjab3112]

1. It is highly likely Jack used a ligature.

2. It's true Bury didn't cut Ellen's throat but there is no diffinitive evidence that The Torso victims had their throats cut in the same way Jack did. They may for instance have all been killed by decapitation or the dismemberment might have killed them.

3. We don't know what knife Jack used. The penknife might have been the only knife Jack/Bury had in Dundee.

Hi John

1. My point concerning ligature is that a rope is surely large enough that no knife cut will obliterate the bruising

2. I'm not claiming Jack and Torso are the same, in fact I believe not. But two serial killers in one city with similar methods is unusual but certainly not a never event. I hope to complete a question Steve/Elmarna asked a while back concerning could the decapitation have hidden a ripper cut at some point, but this has expanded slightly into two killers in the same city (at least in my mind)

3. I think those who performed the original autopsies were pretty clear that Jack's knife was no typical pen or workers knife. I agree though we do not and will likely never know the shape of, or even if all were with the same knife

Regards

Paul

[MrBarnett]

4. Only in one case did the Torso killer definitively take out organs.

5. There is no common consensus as to Jack's skill with a knife. Bury was at one point a horse meat butcher. Which might have meant Bury was quite skilled with a knife.

As for your last point you really are full of it.

John,

I think I may have asked this question before...

What is your source for the suggestion that Bury was at some point a horse butcher?

Gary

[John Wheat]

John,

I think I may have asked this question before...

What is your source for the suggestion that Bury was at some point a horse butcher?

Gary

Hi Gary

William Beadle mentions it at least once in Jack the Ripper Unmasked.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

Hi John

1. My point concerning ligature is that a rope is surely large enough that no knife cut will obliterate the bruising

2. I'm not claiming Jack and Torso are the same, in fact I believe not. But two serial killers in one city with similar methods is unusual but certainly not a never event. I hope to complete a question Steve/Elmarna asked a while back concerning could the decapitation have hidden a ripper cut at some point, but this has expanded slightly into two killers in the same city (at least in my mind)

3. I think those who performed the original autopsies were pretty clear that Jack's knife was no typical pen or workers knife. I agree though we do not and will likely never know the shape of, or even if all were with the same knife

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul

1. I never claimed that Jack used rope as a ligature. I don't believe he used another or other ligatures.

2. I agree I don't believe Jack and the Torso Killer were one and the same the evidence is just not there to suggest that they were.

3. Fair enough. Although the knife or knives Jack used does not rule Bury out at all.

Cheers John

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gary

William Beadle mentions it at least once in Jack the Ripper Unmasked.

Cheers John

Thanks, John.

[Wyatt Earp]

3. Bury used a large pen knife. Jack's was likely a much larger blade

If things had gotten a little too "hot" for Bury in London, that could explain his decision to move out of the area. It's possible he discarded his "Ripper" knife at the same time he sold his horse and cart.