Annie Farmer and the man with an abscess

[Boggles]

Ive long suspected the Annie Farmer assault was a genuine Ripper attack.
Anyone interested in Bury as a suspect should read through the witness statements pertaining to it (of which there are many) - good match for our guy, right down to his use of a horse whip to fend off his pursuers!

http://www.casebook.org/victims/afarmer.html

Another interesting point is of all the possible ripper victims it is the only time a distinguishing feature on a suspect has been recorded - he had a scar or abscess on his neck.
Just prior to Bury being hanged he made a fuss about removing his neck scarf, but other than this no record of this on Bury though.

The fact that Farmer recognized her assailant from a year ago ''and he ill used me then'' could be a good motivation for any Jack to stop hunting in Whitechapel and move to other areas (ie Poplar).

Of course Farmer was ridiculed and dismissed at the time, just as she is now.
Then of course it boils down to the same old argument - are looking for an expert assassin - or just some madman who got lucky? Other serial killers botch murder attempts, but Jack wouldn't have would he?

[Debra A]

Ive long suspected the Annie Farmer assault was a genuine Ripper attack.
Anyone interested in Bury as a suspect should read through the witness statements pertaining to it (of which there are many) - good match for our guy, right down to his use of a horse whip to fend off his pursuers!

http://www.casebook.org/victims/afarmer.html

Another interesting point is of all the possible ripper victims it is the only time a distinguishing feature on a suspect has been recorded - he had a scar or abscess on his neck.
Just prior to Bury being hanged he made a fuss about removing his neck scarf, but other than this no record of this on Bury though.

The fact that Farmer recognized her assailant from a year ago ''and he ill used me then'' could be a good motivation for any Jack to stop hunting in Whitechapel and move to other areas (ie Poplar).

Of course Farmer was ridiculed and dismissed at the time, just as she is now.
Then of course it boils down to the same old argument - are looking for an expert assassin - or just some madman who got lucky? Other serial killers botch murder attempts, but Jack wouldn't have would he?

I've always found the Farmer attack interesting from the perspective that the witness, Ruffell, who chased the assailant in what was reported as another ripper attack, and gave a description of him, was Jewish.He described a man with blue eyes and I always wonder if he was called in to identify an apprehended suspect in the Farmer attack who he later discovered was also Jewish. Just a thought..

Regarding boils-- Pizer had a large carbuncle on his neck which he had removed in early 1888 and also William (Grant) Grainger suffered from boils and scarring on his neck according to his prison descriptions.

[John G]

I've always found the Farmer attack interesting from the perspective that the witness, Ruffell, who chased the assailant in what was reported as another ripper attack, and gave a description of him, was Jewish.He described a man with blue eyes and I always wonder if he was called in to identify an apprehended suspect in the Farmer attack who he later discovered was also Jewish. Just a thought..

Regarding boils-- Pizer had a large carbuncle on his neck which he had removed in early 1888 and also William (Grant) Grainger suffered from boils and scarring on his neck according to his prison descriptions.

From memory, wasn't Grant Grainger supposedly Identified by Joseph Lawende?

[Debra A]

From memory, wasn't Grant Grainger supposedly Identified by Joseph Lawende?

According to the Pall Mall Gazette a witness believed to have seen the Whitechapel murderer was used and identified Grainger, Jon.

[John G]

According to the Pall Mall Gazette a witness believed to have seen the Whitechapel murderer was used and identified Grainger, Jon.

Thanks for the reply Debra. I suppose that could therefore mean, in addition to Lawende, Levy, Schwartz, Hutchinson (unlikely?), PC Smith, Cox or even an as yet unidentified witness.

[Debra A]

Thanks for the reply Debra. I suppose that could therefore mean, in addition to Lawende, Levy, Schwartz, Hutchinson (unlikely?), PC Smith, Cox or even an as yet unidentified witness.

Jon, the actual wording was "... there is one person whom the police believe to have actually seen the Whitechapel murderer with a woman a few minutes before that woman's dissected body was found in the street.."
I think that definitely rules out Hutchinson, if not the others.

[John G]

Jon, the actual wording was "... there is one person whom the police believe to have actually seen the Whitechapel murderer with a woman a few minutes before that woman's dissected body was found in the street.."
I think that definitely rules out Hutchinson, if not the others.

Thanks Debra. I agree, even Joseph Levy would appear to be ruled out on that basis. However, as it seems very likely that Lawende also identified Kosminski as the suspect he saw, his value as a reliable witnesses is clearly questionable.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra. I agree, even Joseph Levy would appear to be ruled out on that basis. However, as it seems very likely that Lawende also identified Kosminski as the suspect he saw, his value as a reliable witnesses is clearly questionable.

Although. Jon, we are told that the witness, who we believe to be Lawende, wouldn't swear to Kosminski so that might mean he was okay to be used for ID purposes again in the Grainger case-if the PMG is reliable and if it was also Lawende used there.
If Lawende had positively identified Kosminski as the man he had seen with Eddowes then I agree; he couldn't be used again to positively identify another man (Grainger) in the same sighting.

[Harry D]

Thanks Debra. I agree, even Joseph Levy would appear to be ruled out on that basis. However, as it seems very likely that Lawende also identified Kosminski as the suspect he saw, his value as a reliable witnesses is clearly questionable.

Lawende admitted that he probably wouldn't recognise the guy again but seven years later he positively identifies Grainger? And why was no further action taken? Bear in mind, the only source for this alleged identification is the Pall Mall Gazette, but nevertheless it would fly in the face of Anderson & Swanson's claims, because it seems the police assiduously investigated Grainger as a suspect despite the "Ripper" being locked up in an asylum at the time.

[John G]

Although. Jon, we are told that the witness, who we believe to be Lawende, wouldn't swear to Kosminski so that might mean he was okay to be used for ID purposes again in the Grainger case-if the PMG is reliable and if it was also Lawende used there.
If Lawende had positively identified Kosminski as the man he had seen with Eddowes then I agree; he couldn't be used again to positively identify another man (Grainger) in the same sighting.

Hi Debra,

I've remembered that there was an interesting discussion on the reliability of Lawende as a witness some time ago, which involved the highly respected Ripperologist, Paul Begg: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8856&page=11

Paul believes that there must have been a "substantial additional factor", i.e. apart from the identification, that lead Anderson to believe that Kosminski was the killer (although he's also argued that Schwartz was more likely than Lawende to be Anderson's/Swanson's witness: Begg, 2004).

Personally, I regard Lawende as a very uninspiring witnesses, who probably saw even less than he claimed. For instance, consider Harry Harris' opinion:

" Mr Henry Harris [sic], of the two gentlemen our representative interviewed, is the more communicative. He is of the opinion that neither Mr Levander nor Mr Levy saw anything more than he did, and that was only the back of the man." ( Evening News, 9 October, 1888).

Now I find this very telling, considering that it must be very unlikely that the three friends hadn't discussed events, and what they saw, prior to this interview.

In my view, Lawende was revelling in his role of prime witness, and almost certainly exaggerated what he'd seen, i.e. in order to retain this status.

I therefore agree that if Lawende was Anderson's witness, then is identification of Kosminski was less than satisfactory, despite Swanson's assertion that the witness, "unhessitatingly identified the suspect" (this was possibly just wishful thinking) and the subsequent reasons given for the witness not being prepared to give evidence are far from satisfactory.