Barnett may have had catatonic Paranoid Schizophrenia

[MrTwibbs]

On doing some medical research I discovered that one of the symptoms of catatonic Paranoid Schizophrenia ( untreated Schizophrenia) is echolalia (repeat last words spoken). These days catatonic Paranoid Schizophrenia is rare. it is a subset of Schizophrenia. I postulate that Barnett could have suffered from Paranoid Schizophrenia and it might have contributed to his fish porter license loss. It came on in episodes. Was untreated (by Victorian standards this means being put in an asylum. Modern standards drugs and therapy) and resulted in catatonic Paranoid Schizophrenia, which led to echolalia. I am not suggesting that Barnett is JTR as I do not know and haven't the confidence to make such a claim but it is an interesting little fact

Opinions?

[DJA]

Prolly autistic.

Him,not you

[mpriestnall]

Seems like a big leap to me to jump from possibly having "echolalia" to a diagnosis of catatonic Paranoid Schizophrenia.

I would say the cause of his stuttering was more proasaic than that.

Namely, it was a sign of stress due to being put up by authorities to lie about Kelly's background.

But hell, what do I know!

[MrTwibbs]

Yes both more likely suggestions. Just thought i'd run that idea up the flag pole and see what happened.
Thanks for keeping me grounded

[mpriestnall]

Yes both more likely suggestions. Just thought i'd run that idea up the flag pole and see what happened.
Thanks for keeping me grounded

Good for you for trying out ideas, though. I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) many people on CB seem afraid to try out ideas. More the pity.

Clearly I'm not one of them. I've got MJK as a Londoner, and doing an impression of Lazarus post 9th November 1888!

[erobitha]

Echolalia is a more common symptom of autism, often identified as part of a cluster of symptoms.

A cluster of symptoms is also required to diagnose Schizophrenia. It seems you have a cluster of one thus far.

[JeffHamm]

I believe Barnett was reported as repeating the last word from questions before providing his answer.

That's not really "ecolalia", which is parroting entire phrases back. Rather, it sounds more like a nervous verbal tick, probably while he's gathering his thoughts before answering. It's not an indication of "making up an answer" either (i.e. it's not evidence he's trying to "stay on script"), rather, the most likely explanation (because it's very common) is that it simply reflects nervousness and normal situational anxiety, in his case due to being on the witness stand. He's certainly not catatonic, which tends to include things like staying in a frozen posture (where if someone moves the person's arm, or leg, etc to a new position, they'll hold it there, even in uncomfortable positions, for long periods of time), odd facial grimaces, remaining mute and non-responsive (but when they do respond, echolalia is common, so they just repeat things back, they don't really "respond", which Barnett did do).

- Jeff

[DJA]

Echolalia - Wikipedia

[mpriestnall]

Echolalia - Wikipedia

[MrTwibbs]

I believe Barnett was reported as repeating the last word from questions before providing his answer.

That's not really "ecolalia", which is parroting entire phrases back. Rather, it sounds more like a nervous verbal tick, probably while he's gathering his thoughts before answering. It's not an indication of "making up an answer" either (i.e. it's not evidence he's trying to "stay on script"), rather, the most likely explanation (because it's very common) is that it simply reflects nervousness and normal situational anxiety, in his case due to being on the witness stand. He's certainly not catatonic, which tends to include things like staying in a frozen posture (where if someone moves the person's arm, or leg, etc to a new position, they'll hold it there, even in uncomfortable positions, for long periods of time), odd facial grimaces, remaining mute and non-responsive (but when they do respond, echolalia is common, so they just repeat things back, they don't really "respond", which Barnett did do).

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Yes, Wikipedia has a decent summary of it. However, even reading their summary of it, simply repeating the last word from a question while in the witness stand hardly fits the bill. Basically, when someone is in a stressful situation like Barnett was, repeating the last word of a question before respond is not going to be considered evidence of any sort of neurological disorder, rather it would suggest nervousness. You can, if you wish, call his behaviour echolalia if you really want to, but unless he exhibited this tendency to repeat words back as a common trait in normal circumstances, which there is no reason to believe he did, it's still not an indication of any underlying psychological condition.

- Jeff

[mpriestnall]

"Jack The Ripper - The Simple Truth" by Bruce Paley was the first time I came across the suggestion the Barnett showed signs of ecolalia.

I thought it would a good idea to have some sources of his supposed ecolalia on this thread. I obtained these press sources quoted by B.P. from his chapter "Sources and Notes" in case anyone wanted to check them out:

The Standard
13 November 1888

Illustrated Police News
17 November 1888

The Daily Chronicle
13 November 1888

A press agency report from the Cardiff Times and South Wales
Weekly News
17 November 1888

The last source reports how Barnett began every answer by repeating the last word of every question asked.

[erobitha]

Yes, Wikipedia has a decent summary of it. However, even reading their summary, simply repeating the last word from a question while on the witness stand hardly fits the bill. Basically, when someone is in a stressful situation like Barnett was, repeating the last word of a question before responding is not considered evidence of any neurological disorder. Rather it would suggest nervousness. You can, if you wish, call his behaviour echolalia if you really want to. Still, there is no reason to believe he did unless he exhibited this tendency to repeat words back as a common trait in normal circumstances. It's not an indication of any underlying psychological condition.

- Jeff

Indeed. To sufficiently diagnose anything of a neurological or behavioural nature, you must first establish a baseline reading. Does the condition/trait occur in everyday non-stressful situations, or does it manifest only under pressure? If it occurs naturally in everyday situations, it is most likely an underlying neurological condition.

If stress triggers a non-typical behaviour in someone, they are simply not equipped emotionally to handle intense questioning. However, it could also indicate possible deceptive behaviour too. Only, if combined with other indicators such as tapping the table, touching their face for comfort, excessive fidgeting etc. - basically a combination of anything not usually observed in the baseline behaviour.

Of course, we know more now than they did then, but for whatever reason, it is worth noting this behaviour of Barrett's. It is not usual for atypical people.

[JeffHamm]

Indeed. To sufficiently diagnose anything of a neurological or behavioural nature, you must first establish a baseline reading. Does the condition/trait occur in everyday non-stressful situations, or does it manifest only under pressure? If it occurs naturally in everyday situations, it is most likely an underlying neurological condition.

If stress triggers a non-typical behaviour in someone, they are simply not equipped emotionally to handle intense questioning. However, it could also indicate possible deceptive behaviour too. Only, if combined with other indicators such as tapping the table, touching their face for comfort, excessive fidgeting etc. - basically a combination of anything not usually observed in the baseline behaviour.

Of course, we know more now than they did then, but for whatever reason, it is worth noting this behaviour of Barrett's. It is not usual for atypical people.

Indeed. All we have are reports that he had a tendency, which we must consider may have been over inflated in the press, to repeat the last words of questions put to him. Being nervous in a stressful situation can do that. Observe people doing public speaking who are not used to it and their verbal behaviour will not be representative of their normal speech patterns. To read anything into it would be un called for. As with anything, one starts with the most common explanation as that's the base starting point - the simple explanation that has to be disproved before asserting a more complex one. When we consider Barnett's situation, he's giving testimony about the brutal murder of his ex-partner, who he had to identify at the morgue, etc, and he's clearly in a situation where nervousness and stress are going to be present. I've had students preparing for their dissertation defense who did this, and they were used to public speaking, they knew their stuff inside and out, but a defense is a stressful time. We had to work at getting them to stop repeating the last bits of the questions I would ask them during practice. They were doing it to focus their thoughts on the question asked, not to make things up, not to be deceptive, but to overcome nerves and try and maintain focus on what was being asked them. Put them in front of a class, no problem, could chat away normally, clearly, answer any question the students had, and so forth. But as soon as we started practicing for their defense, the nerves and stress went out the window. Others will freeze, and not speak, or draw complete blanks, despite being a warehouse of knowledge. People can respond very unexpectedly in times of stress for no other reason than because they find the situation stressful. Doesn't require them to be deceptive, or anything like that. So without something else to indicate that his repeating the last word from questions was anything other than a reaction to the stress of the situation, there's just not enough information to suggest he had any sort of neurological condition or any sort of diagnosis.

Now, if other information existed, then sure, this could be one more bit of useful information too. But on its own, it's too easy, and too likely, to be nothing of very much interest.

- Jeff

[MrTwibbs]

Indeed. All we have are reports that he had a tendency, which we must consider may have been over inflated in the press, to repeat the last words of questions put to him. Being nervous in a stressful situation can do that. Observe people doing public speaking who are not used to it and their verbal behaviour will not be representative of their normal speech patterns. To read anything into it would be un called for. As with anything, one starts with the most common explanation as that's the base starting point - the simple explanation that has to be disproved before asserting a more complex one. When we consider Barnett's situation, he's giving testimony about the brutal murder of his ex-partner, who he had to identify at the morgue, etc, and he's clearly in a situation where nervousness and stress are going to be present. I've had students preparing for their dissertation defense who did this, and they were used to public speaking, they knew their stuff inside and out, but a defense is a stressful time. We had to work at getting them to stop repeating the last bits of the questions I would ask them during practice. They were doing it to focus their thoughts on the question asked, not to make things up, not to be deceptive, but to overcome nerves and try and maintain focus on what was being asked them. Put them in front of a class, no problem, could chat away normally, clearly, answer any question the students had, and so forth. But as soon as we started practicing for their defense, the nerves and stress went out the window. Others will freeze, and not speak, or draw complete blanks, despite being a warehouse of knowledge. People can respond very unexpectedly in times of stress for no other reason than because they find the situation stressful. Doesn't require them to be deceptive, or anything like that. So without something else to indicate that his repeating the last word from questions was anything other than a reaction to the stress of the situation, there's just not enough information to suggest he had any sort of neurological condition or any sort of diagnosis.

Now, if other information existed, then sure, this could be one more bit of useful information too. But on its own, it's too easy, and too likely, to be nothing of very much interest.

- Jeff

I agree with you Jeff. I was only suggesting the possibility for discussion and you have helped provide an explanation as I mentioned earlier. thank you