Barnett a coal man?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
John McCarthy stated in the press that the deseased [ MJK] came to live with a man called Kelly..a coal porter, and posed as his wife thus becoming known as Mary Kelly.
We know that this kelly, was infact Barnett, so the question must be asked.
Whilst in Millers court did Joseph Barnett ever work as a coalman?.
Better still.
Did McCarthy get him that job?
It so happens that just a few doors away in Dorset street in 1888 was a coal dealer' Miss jane Brooks coal',.. and who owned that proberty?, none other then McCarthy.
And what number was that.... Number39...
And we all know what relevance I place on that.
We will never know, but one would assume that McCarthy would know if the tenant of room 13 dabbled in coal,, it would be hard to miss.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

Hi Richard

That's interesting. Barnett's sister Catherine was married to a coal porter called Joseph Beer, I believe. Perhaps that's how the confusion arose? It's possible, at any rate.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Sally,
Firstly welcome to Casebook.
Absolutely, Barnetts brother-in -law, may well have been a frequent visitor to room 13 , if only initially, and that would make it entirely possible for McCarthys interpretation.
There again mayby he got Barnett a job, was he, then employed at 39 Dorset street?
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Hi Richard and Sally
Isn't there a sticking point with Paley's Barnett in that in the 1911 census he stated he'd been married to Louisa for 23 full years(between april 1887 and april 1888).So unless we know Louisa under a different name....???

[richardnunweek]

Hi my friend.
The mind boggles, I am not entirely convinced that the real Barnett has been identified, by either Paley, or Harrison, but the former does seem the most logical, although the latters newspapers cuttings[ ALLEGED] apparently from Joseph Barnett, shown to the author by a relative in a pub, are either ficticious, or very intresting. mmm
Confused.
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Hi Richard
What's the story with the newspaper cuttings?
Although i've read Paley i haven't read Harrison so must confess to being ignorant on this one.I have read about his candidate for Barnett in Chris Scott's book though and it does appear ,from the names,to be a Jewish rather than Irish family so given what Barnett said to the press about Irish parentage it did seem that Paley had the perfect candidate.That was until the census release!
We wouldn't be happy if we weren't confused would we

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
With reference to the newspaper cuttings.
Paul Harrison claimed that he arranged to meet a desendant of Joseph Barnett in a pub, and this guy brought along with him, newapaper cuttings of the murders, from Tabram- Alice McKensie.
Harrison claimed that these belonged to Barnett, and made the observation that only the real killer would have known that Tabram was to be part of a series.
These were authentic cuttings,[alleged] and speaking from experience newspapers of the period are extremely expensive[ I have many], and it surely is unlikely that a hoaxer, would obtain seven newspapers, and cut out the relevant sections, for Harrisons benefit.
Anyway, one could easy tell ,if the cuttings had been kept in a drawer , or in a preserved enviroment.
Harrison also mentioned that this imformant mentioned [ oral history] that Barnett said the following' I often felt sorry for the killer, as he could not come foreward for fear of being topped'
Strange indeed.
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Hi,
With reference to the newspaper cuttings.
Paul Harrison claimed that he arranged to meet a desendant of Joseph Barnett in a pub, and this guy brought along with him, newapaper cuttings of the murders, from Tabram- Alice McKensie.
Harrison claimed that these belonged to Barnett, and made the observation that only the real killer would have known that Tabram was to be part of a series.
These were authentic cuttings,[alleged] and speaking from experience newspapers of the period are extremely expensive[ I have many], and it surely is unlikely that a hoaxer, would obtain seven newspapers, and cut out the relevant sections, for Harrisons benefit.
Anyway, one could easy tell ,if the cuttings had been kept in a drawer , or in a preserved enviroment.
Harrison also mentioned that this imformant mentioned [ oral history] that Barnett said the following' I often felt sorry for the killer, as he could not come foreward for fear of being topped'
Strange indeed.
Regards Richard.

Thanks for the info Richard
I feel a new book purchase coming along.Expensive interest this sometimes

[miss marple]

Kent

Joseph Beer, Joe Barnett's brother in law was a carman, not a coalman. A carman would drive a hansom cab for hire, like a taxi driver or drive a wagon and horses
The genealogy of Joe and his siblings is set in stone, we know a lot about his family due to census records, addresses marriages deaths etc. because of all the detail in the papers at the time. Bruce Paley is right on the money for the family,because everything matches up, although in the days before the internet he could not find some births,but Joe's missing years from 1888 to 1906 are not accounted for, unless he was the Joe living in Kent and married to Catherine with children . If he was that Joe then he definitely was not the Joe living with Louisa in Whitechapel. I don't trust the timings of that relationship, I don't think that was Joe.
Joe had a porter's license since 1878, when he was 20 but that does not mean he worked consistently as a porter, he probably did general labouring as well which may have included heaving coal. In census of 1881 at I Horatio st Joe is descibed as labourer and his brother John as a fish porter[ all the brothers had licenses.
Miss Marple
Barnett was also a jewish name and there were several Joseph Barnetts born around that time of jewish origin but from census records have no connection with the Irish Barnetts that was Joe's family

[Sally]

Joseph Beer, Joe Barnett's brother in law was a carman, not a coalman. A carman would drive a hansom cab for hire, like a taxi driver or drive a wagon and horses

Hi Miss Marple

Joseph Beer was a Coalman, I think. The term Carman could apply to any horse-drawn transporter of goods or people, as far as I'm aware. In itself, it's not specific enough to tell you much.

The various Census entries for Joseph Beer tell us that he was a coalman, however. He is listed as:

1881 - Carman
1891 - Carman
1901 - Carman (Coal)
1911 - Coalporter

I'm happy that that means he was always a coalman. It could be argued that he changed jobs along the way, I suppose.

Best regards

Sally

[miss marple]

Hi Sally,
The two jobs are not incompatible, as a carman he probably delivered coal.driving the horse drawn wagons with the hessian bags of coal to be delivered to shops and homes.
Even as late as the fifties I remember coal being delivered on a horse drawn cart in King's Cross.
Beer was not a labourer but a skilled horse driver,wheras Joe when not in the fish market was a general labourer. As Beer lived quite close by in Spitalfields in the early 80s the odd day coal heaving may have come Joe's way but I dont think it is anymore significant than any other labouring job he had The porter's license did not guarantee a job in the fish market.
The impression I do get is that Joe and his siblings were very close.
Cheers Miss Marple

[Andrew Gable]

I recall seeing a property map of Dorset Street... wasn't there an 'M. Barnet' who owned buildings there? Anything on him/any relation to Joe?

[miss marple]

Joe had no relatives beginning with M.[ wrong spelling] There were many Barnets and Barnetts in the East End. Joe's family were Catholic but Barnet and Barnett was also a Jewish name, there were several Jewish families of that name in the East End.Miss Marple