Barnetts character

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
There was a time that I had huge suspicions about Joseph Barnett, however that conviction has wavered over the years, and now I just dont rule him out.
But what sort of man was he?
Many believe he was a hard working , decent sort, that found himself tangled up in events that Autumn
Many believe that he was of relative sober habits, and quite well dressed.
I believe he was much more then that, and it would not surprise me one iota, if he was accurately portrayed in that[ much disputed] Wheeling article ie common, illiterate, and very fond of a drink.
A man that cashed in on being the ex of Mjk, and indeed wasted no time in carrying on with one of Marys associates.
Nothing wrong with that , but Proberly the Wheeling report shows a accurate character.
But say many 'It was a gossip paper'..but Barnett was interviewed by a reporter, and it was not formed by local gossip, also the alleged gossip mentioning hutchinsons payment of 'five weeks wages', was confirmed over the air waves some 85 years after the publication , and some 18 years later in 'The Ripper and the Royals', by a man who was the proven son of a man named George Hutchinson.
So I would say that regardless, of the papers reputation, it is not more then possible, that the articles on Barnett, and Hutchinson, are truthful, giving us a different charcter when trying to picture the morals of Kellys ex.
Regards Richard.

[miss marple]

Richard,
Whats is the Wheeling report and where do you find it? All sounds a bit dodgy. There is no evidence Joe was illiterate. He went to school. He had a Porters license and would have to read and understand the regulations and sign his name and his statement to the police. He also read aloud the newspapers to Mary Kelly.
We don't believe everything that is printed in the Sun or The Star, so why believe gossip rag as gospel? As for Hutchinson and the Ripper and the royals well another load of unproven tarrididdle!
Cheers Miss Marple

[claire]

I don't know, Richard. I don't know that he would have been illiterate, but I do find some resonance in the idea that there was more (and less 'saintly') to JB than an all-round good guy who just found himself caught up in events. For example, something caused him to lose his fish porter's license--either not turning up; theft; drinking; fighting on the job or whatever, but as far as I know, it wasn't due to simple economic downturn.

Further, it seems quite likely that, given his childhood circumstances, he didn't stroll out of that unscathed. I'm not suggesting that he was horribly damaged, but it seems likely that, if he was a good guy, then he was more of the rough diamond type than a clean cut, hard-working boy who took on a prostitute for a lover. He himself (I think?) stated that the window at Millers-court was broken during a drunken spat--given they'd been together a while, I don't think that it was just a case of MJ having a few and him soberly enduring it.

So, I agree with you: there's more to JB than legend likes to portray, but just what his nature was, and whether it concords with Wheeling's portrayal, I don't know.

[Adam Went]

Yeah I don't think the illiterate part is right either - perhaps he wasn't a particularly strong reader/writer but it seems that he must have had atleast some basic ability.

I don't think Joe had anything to do with MJK's murder but it seems as though he tried to distance himself from the murder, and her, after the event - much like "Pensioner" Stanley after Annie Chapman's murder. Yet while some might see that as suspicious, we can't really blame them in the climate of fear that was around at the time, and the fact that local mobs were ready to lynch just about anybody they felt might be remotely suspicious.

So there's probably a bit of both. A bit of in the wrong place at the wrong time, but also a bit more to him than we might know of.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Steven Russell]

I enjoyed Bruce Paley's book on Barnett but find the idea that he (Barnett, not Paley) tried to dissuade Mary from prostituting herself by embarking on a vicious killing spree rather difficult to swallow.

The echolalia is interesting though. Does this indicate deep seated neuroses or is it simply a harmless, if slightly odd, character trait? Also, I find it surprising that Barnett supporters do not make more of the fact that Mary's last meal included fish. A gift perhaps? Even if Barnett had been sacked from the market, he surely would have known other fish porters and would have been in a better position than most to obtain cheap fish.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
Illiterate was a wrong choice of word on my part, what I meant to suggest was I tend to believe Barnett was more a rough /ready, type then is perceived.
My post was intended to suggest that although labelled as a 'Gossip' publication, the interview was carried out by a reporter directly to Barnett, who appears to have had his new admirer present, therefore this was not hearsay gossip... even if the 'drunk at the inquest', may have been interpreted wrongly by the presence of echolalia.
My reference to the Wheeling report on Hutchinson was purely to suggest that this paper did not always publish gossip, as suggested , as this was confirmed by the same source on two different occassions some 85 years after the press report, and again some 18 years after the initial hearing, in the Ripper and the Royals.
I have said many times before, that the Wheeling report was a rare publication, and no mention of payment was mentioned in any other newspaper, so how is it that Reg Hutchinson knew of such a payment, and whats more the amount. [which happens to tally with that elusive report?]
This surely gives credence to some Wheeling reporters not inventing scenerios.
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

There was something about Barnett that made Kelly choose him over others to live with. It may have been a case of MJK going from bad'un to bad'un. The police, again as with Hutchinson, surely must have investigated him and found him to be pretty decent. One doesn't just let the lover of a murder victim go without absolutely thorough checking.

Cheers,

Mike

[Graham]

Isn't there a thread devoted to Barnett elsewhere on this forum?

Graham

[Robert]

It's a bit difficult to gauge his charcter at this remove and with so little evidence. And just about everything has more than one interpretation. For instance, the incident of the broken window and Barnett's leaving. That doesn't come across as the action of a bad 'un. A bad 'un would stay, and kick the woman out. But then, if Kelly was behind with the rent, quitting the place and leaving her with the rent arrears might be the action of a bad 'un.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
The whole affair in room 13 is confusing, McCarthy has the man initially as Kelly, a coal porter, and Mary jane moving in , and becoming known as Mary Jane Kelly.
Who was the paying tenant?
Were they jointly responsible for the rent, or was Kelly/Barnett liable, after all he was the only bread winner in feb when they moved in to room 13, and remained so until his departure on the 30th oct.
If Marys name was on the rent ledger, she would hardly kick out her meal ticket, anyway he allegedly left her, on account of her bringing in sleepovers.
so he either was a weed, or had other ideas, we know he was cunning, for out of his own mouth he said he called on Mary on thursday evening to tell her he had no money, however four hours later he was playing cards, although that may not have been a money game[ but proberly was]
One thing is for certain if Barnett was responsible for the rent, he would have stood no chance against the wrath of McCarthy, so by visiting room 13, appears to have no such worries.
A confusing affair millers court.
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

Hi Richard

I think I read somewhere that it was Kelly's name on the rent book, but can't remember where.

Yes, I imagine that McCarthy would just try to get his rent from anyone he could, so Barnett's continuing appearances in the Court suggest to me that somehow McCarthy had been sweetened. One theory (more a piece of speculation really) is that McCarthy was waiting to see if Barnett could pay in kind, from his new job. I suspect Barnett had been pinching fish for McCarthy from the market. That doesn't make him a murderer, of course, but it might explain why he lost his licence. After that happened, Barnett's part-time work in fruit gave him less chance of having anything to give McCarthy.

I wish we had all McCarthy's rent books from all his tenants, but obviously that's never going to happen. That would give us an idea of how McCarthy dealt with people in arrears in general. I imagine that landlords always had the dilemma, do I kick out this person, write off the arrears and re-let the room, or do I let them stay in the hope they can get back on their feet and gradually pay off the deficit? I suppose it would have depended on the landlord's assessment of each individual tenant.