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  • #16
    Originally posted by perrymason View Post
    Hi Deckard,

    He apparently did make his identification based on Mary Janes 'air or ear and eyes, and I know of at least one report that says he did so from the window.
    Through the window? That doesn't seem to make much sense now does it? Wasn't he allowed inside for a better viewpoint? Do you have more details about this report? I would love to read it!
    Every man looking for salvation by himself... Like a coal drawn from the fire...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by c.d. View Post
      And what of Mary, where would she have gone with no money, no suitcase or clothes?

      The whole it wasn't Mary scenario while possible seems quite improbable. I would expect that Barnett could identify the woman whose bed he had shared.

      c.d.
      Yes, she was flat busted, C.D., and Joe may have been able to identify her because people take note of little marks and scars and other quirks on people they're intimate with, even in the irises.
      "What our ancestors would really be thinking, if they were alive today, is: "Why is it so dark in here?"" From Pyramids by Sir Terry Pratchett, a British National Treasure.

      __________________________________

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      • #18
        Originally posted by deckard1 View Post
        Through the window? That doesn't seem to make much sense now does it? Wasn't he allowed inside for a better viewpoint? Do you have more details about this report? I would love to read it!
        Hi Deckard,

        Its in one of the press articles from November 10th...Im trawling through to find it again....just found the one with the hair being referred to....

        Daily News, November 10th, 1888;

        "Barnet was sent for, and he at once identified the body as that of Kelly, or "Ginger" as she was called owing to the colour of her hair."

        Doesnt mention ears or eyes.

        For interests sake, heres the Telegraph on the 10th with details on the courtyard....

        "Entrance to her apartment was obtained by means of an arched passage, opposite a large lodging-house, and between Nos. 26, and 28, Dorset-street, ending in a cul de sac known as Miller's-court. In this court there are six houses let out in tenements, chiefly to women, the rooms being numbered. On the right-hand side of the passage there are two doors. The first of these leads to the upper floors of the house in which Kelly was living. It has seven rooms, the first-floor front, facing Dorset-street, being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows. A second door opens inwards, direct from the passage, into Kelly's apartment, which is about 15ft. square, and is placed at the rear corner of the building. It has two windows, one small, looking into a yard, which is fitted with a pump. The opposite side of the yard is formed by the side wall of houses, which have whitewashed frontages, and are provided with green shutters. From some of these premises, on the left-hand side of the court, it is possible to secure a view, in a diagonal direction, of the larger window, and also the doorway belonging to the room tenanted by the deceased. In this room there was a bed placed behind the door, and parallel with the window. The rest of the furniture consisted of a table and two chairs. "

        Interesting comments on the time of entry into the room from the Telegraph too...

        "The police at Commercial-street and at Leman-street, both stations being within five minutes' walk, were instantly informed, and in response to the summons Inspector Beck arrived. This officer despatched a message for Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid, both of the Detective department. Nothing, however, was done until the arrival of Mr. T. Arnold, the Superintendent of the H Division of Metropolitan Police, who, shortly after eleven o'clock, gave orders for the door of the room to be broken open."

        Ill have to keep digging, I hoped Id find it by now. Maybe someone elese has read it, I believe Simon Wood found it a while back.

        But I heartily recommend reading any and all of the early press coverage on this particular murder....

        Best regards

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        • #19
          Barnett's Police Interogation

          Hello--I am reposting in this question here as it relates to Joseph B.


          Can anyone help me locate the police records related to the original four-hour interrogation of Joseph Barnett?

          Thanks,

          Jodi

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          • #20
            Was M J Kelly Barnett's Common Law wife?

            Hello again,

            Can anyone direct me to an actual statement that Barnett was Kelly's common law husband or is that automatically assumed because of the length of time they lived together?

            Appreciate any replies...

            Jodi

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            • #21
              Originally posted by c.d. View Post
              Also keep in mind that that description comes from the newspaper which was probably aiming for sensationalism.
              The "I identify her by the ear and the eyes" also appears in the official inquest record, CD. Bear in mind that Kelly's face was hacked to pieces ("beyond all recognition of the features"), I dare say that the coroner/jury had to be satisfied that Barnett had been able to identify her at all.

              To respond to some of the questions/speculations here - I don't see an issue here, to be honest. I'm sure that Barnett was only required to give a couple of token reasons why he could identify Kelly - and that is precisely what he did. It's not as if he (or any other next-of-kin in similar circumstances, for that matter) would be expected to provide an exhaustive list of every feature he'd been able to recognise. Mangled as Kelly was, there would still have been enough by which a lover would have known her, but it would have been daft if Barnett had to trot out a spiel like this: "I identify her by the ear, eyes, discoloured tooth, birthmark on left arm, hair-colour, length of hair, fungal infection of thumbnail, scar on right ankle, shape of toes, verruca on left foot...etc". If he had embarked down that road, I daresay the coroner would have politely intervened after the first few entries - if only to save time.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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              • #22
                A very well thought out and logical explanation as usual, Sam.

                c.d.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  The "I identify her by the ear and the eyes" also appears in the official inquest record, CD. Bear in mind that Kelly's face was hacked to pieces ("beyond all recognition of the features"), I dare say that the coroner/jury had to be satisfied that Barnett had been able to identify her at all.

                  To respond to some of the questions/speculations here - I don't see an issue here, to be honest. I'm sure that Barnett was only required to give a couple of token reasons why he could identify Kelly - and that is precisely what he did. It's not as if he (or any other next-of-kin in similar circumstances, for that matter) would be expected to provide an exhaustive list of every feature he'd been able to recognise. Mangled as Kelly was, there would still have been enough by which a lover would have known her, but it would have been daft if Barnett had to trot out a spiel like this: "I identify her by the ear, eyes, discoloured tooth, birthmark on left arm, hair-colour, length of hair, fungal infection of thumbnail, scar on right ankle, shape of toes, verruca on left foot...etc". If he had embarked down that road, I daresay the coroner would have politely intervened after the first few entries - if only to save time.
                  I dont have a problem with that being the only recognizable features to him Sam, if he saw her covered to the neck with only her face and hair or ear and eyes showing. If he made his ID from the window, and Mary was in the position she was in in MJK1, then he couldnt see at least 2 of those possible 3 features...they werent visible.

                  We know he turned himself in and was questioned for hours...when does he make the ID?

                  My guess is that they would take him to her in the room for that. Her body leaves around 4:30-5pm.

                  Cheers Sam

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                  • #24
                    I would say identifying her by her"eyes and ears" or however he identified her can be looked at from the angle he didnt kill her.Put simply,she was stabbed and mutilated to the point she was barely recognizable,Barnett could,if he was the killer,have said the woman wasnt MJK(which it appears wasnt her name anyhow though whether Barnett knew that is anyones guess!!) and just claim MJK had done a vanishing act.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by perrymason View Post
                      If he made his ID from the window, and Mary was in the position she was in in MJK1, then he couldnt see at least 2 of those possible 3 features...they werent visible.
                      He would not have made his official identification by squinting through the window, Mike. There would have been a standard protocols for such things, and playing peek-a-boo with the corpse wouldn't have been one of them.
                      We know he turned himself in and was questioned for hours...when does he make the ID?
                      Any time after that four hour period - or even during it. If not then, there were yet a couple of days before the inquest would be held for official IDs to take place.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                      • #26
                        It wasn't written anywhere that Joe was definitely taken to #13 for the ID, was it?

                        As for the identification, I'd always imagined that Mary Kelly's long ginger hair would have been requirement enough to prove it was she to Barnett. Wasn't her long, unbonneted red hair somewhat unusual among the women of the area? And aren't most of our partner's hair the most identifiable thing about them-not only color, specific texture and length but especially the shape of her hairline about the skull, right round to the nape of the neck? God knows he would have had that view fixed in his memory right enough.

                        Given the state of her body neck-to-thighs, I'd hope that the police had covered that part of her up for Joe. How can anyone ID a skinned and eviscerated corpse?

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                        • #27
                          But I've seen Mary Kelly being described in various witness statements as being raven haired, dark brown and even ginger.

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                          • #28
                            I suppose her portrayals in movies don't help pin down what she really looked like. In the Michael Caine miniseries of 1988 actress Lysette Anthony played her with black hair, even though that's not Lysette's natural color. Its been my impression that the most common consensus is that her hair was some shade of red, though probably NOT the flaming orange worn by Heather Gramm in "From Hell"!

                            And I'm sorry to those who think Barnett was Mary's killer, or even that he was Jack the Ripper, but I've just never bought it. They had their problems, but they were not actually broken up in the end, just "on a break," with him still visiting her regularly and giving her money when he could. There is hope in those actions. I think the poor guy has gotten a really bad rap and I can't imagine the despair and horror he must have gone through in finding the woman he loved was dead and then having to stand there and i.d. her body, no matter where or when that actually occurred.

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                            • #29
                              nice post kensei

                              I agree whole-heartedly.
                              babybird

                              There is only one happiness in life—to love and be loved.

                              George Sand

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                              • #30
                                Hi everyone,

                                Mary Kelly reputedly had blue eyes and a distinctive hair colouring. When he was reported to have said he recognised her by the ear and eyes, he may have said "Hair and eyes."

                                Best wishes.

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