the key

[dixon9]

reading through the MJK murder (and the locked door).Many a view is that only Barnett and McCarthy would have had keys,hence the finger(by some being pointed at Barnett.)
My question is would Barnett still have had a key to the room he once shared with MJK,or are people just assuming this to fit in with the theory Barnett did the crime?

Thanks for any help/views(boy i need them.lol)

[Mitch Rowe]

The story is that the key was lost during a fight so the side window was broken to gain access to the room. So if thats the case many people could have known how to get in. I presume MJK would have gained access that way in front of whomever she was coming home with. Could have been friends or customers. Those people could have told others. It would also be possible to pick a lock or even keep a number of keys to gain access to apartments for the purpose on burglary. So the key is a moot point. In my opinion its most likely MJK and JTR walked in together.

[dixon9]

thanks you for reply mitch,i didn't think the key had much bearing(just that i read a few theories) saying it was a big pointer to Barnett being the killer of MJK(which i dont subscribe to)

Thanks again for your reply

[Jeff Leahy]

If we assume that MJK was a ripper victim (which she probably was) then Mitch’es solution seems the most logical. As in each murder the victim seems to have taken Jack to the point of their death rather than the other way around. Which is why you should be careful about precise profiling.

I don’t think we should worry too much about whether the door was locked or not. There was hardly much worth steeling apart from a few broken pipes, a broken glass with the remains of a candle, some tatty furniture and an old picture. The most valuable items appear to be the clothes, which were brunt by the ripper probably to provide light…

Personally I don’t believe that the door was locked but left on a latch. As has been pointed out opening the door through the window was probably not as easy as it looks or sounds.

All the best Pirate

[jodi]

Barnett's key

I read in Shirley Harrison's book about the "diary of JTR" (sorry I don't have the book with me) that she had found some piece of evidence or a statement by barnett that he had recovered the lost key....is this possible?

Jodi

reading through the MJK murder (and the locked door).Many a view is that only Barnett and McCarthy would have had keys,hence the finger(by some being pointed at Barnett.)
My question is would Barnett still have had a key to the room he once shared with MJK,or are people just assuming this to fit in with the theory Barnett did the crime?

Thanks for any help/views(boy i need them.lol)

[perrymason]

There is in my opinion a problem with the story of the broken window pane, so maybe there is with the "lost key" as well.

The pane is actually one of 2 thats broken in the first window in the alcove, closest to the corner by the door, the window being comprised of rows of small, individual panes, ...and the one Im surmising they used is the smaller broken pane section by the lower right hand corner of that window. It allowed them to access the spring latch. This is the pane they alleged was broken during a row then later used by them due to the key loss to lock the room and get back into it later.

I believe that pane wasnt the one that was broken in any row...if there was one, I think that pane is the one on the left hand side of that window if any, past window mid-height. I think the small pane that is used for locking and unlocking was broken for the purpose they used it for, but not as an accident.

What if the row was from Mary locking Barnett outside...and him smashing that window to get at the latch? Just wondering aloud, since he mentions the row in the first place, how bad those rows may have been.

Was Barnett asked to leave because Mary was afraid of him....was that the real reason why Maria stayed with them? Wasnt Maria cautious about seeing them together that last night before she leaves?

Just asking. Any thoughts?

Cheers all.

[jodi]

the key

I looked at pictures and was puzzled as to the location of the window (wondered about the alcove etc.) Do you happen to know if the door had a sliding bolt plus a key operated lock. I do recall from somewhere that the police had to bust down the door to get it because the bolt wasnt the problem.

--Jodi

[JennyL]

Hi Jodi-

If I am correct the door to 13 had no sliding bolt, just a "spring lock"-the sort that would automatically be locked if it were shut while left "off the latch"(this phrase always confuses me as it seems that "ON the latch" should mean "lock ON, but apparently it's the opposite). I lived in a c.1907 house with that sort of lock on one door-there was a button on the side where the door latch was that could be pushed to allow the door to remain either locked or unlocked when shut, and 13 had something like this too. If off the latch/locked, one either needed a key-or to be able to turn the knob from inside, releasing the lock button.
The doorknob of 13 was on the left-hand side; the broken/open window pane at the lower right edge were within touching distance to the left of the door, in a diagonal line with the corner of 13 between them. Someone here will surely be able to estimate the number of inches, but it was all very tight and close together: window, door right there, little table that was so close to the door when open that it stopped the door, then the bed next to that. Tiny room.

[perrymason]

Hi Jodi-

If I am correct the door to 13 had no sliding bolt, just a "spring lock"-the sort that would automatically be locked if it were shut while left "off the latch"(this phrase always confuses me as it seems that "ON the latch" should mean "lock ON, but apparently it's the opposite). I lived in a c.1907 house with that sort of lock on one door-there was a button on the side where the door latch was that could be pushed to allow the door to remain either locked or unlocked when shut, and 13 had something like this too. If off the latch/locked, one either needed a key-or to be able to turn the knob from inside, releasing the lock button.
The doorknob of 13 was on the left-hand side; the broken/open window pane at the lower right edge were within touching distance to the left of the door, in a diagonal line with the corner of 13 between them. Someone here will surely be able to estimate the number of inches, but it was all very tight and close together: window, door right there, little table that was so close to the door when open that it stopped the door, then the bed next to that. Tiny room.

Hi Jenny,

The spring latch works just like that, and is a secondary locking system that attaches to surface of the inside of the door and jamb had a catch. Switched "off" and it locked when closed,...switched "on"...and it left it "on the latch", and open. Seems to me Blotchy and Mary were not seen fumbling with the window before they entered the room, so Mary may have left the latch "on".

Maybe thats why she had someone walk her home, technically anyone could have entered her room while she was out.

We did some approximate measurements once, window from corner, door width, location of latch....that kind of stuff, and I believe we concluded that the latch could be accessed by an outstretched arm of a man approx 5 ft 6 or more, to account for proportional arm length.

Cheers Jen

[IchabodCrane]

We did some approximate measurements once, window from corner, door width, location of latch....that kind of stuff, and I believe we concluded that the latch could be accessed by an outstretched arm of a man approx 5 ft 6 or more, to account for proportional arm length.

In which case it would have been difficult for Mary Jane to open the door through the window

My feeling is the door was locked from the outside by the killer, which is why the police had to force the door.

IchabodCrane

[perrymason]

In which case it would have been difficult for Mary Jane to open the door through the window

My feeling is the door was locked from the outside by the killer, which is why the police had to force the door.

IchabodCrane

All the killer need do is leave the latch "off" Icahbod when he left...and thats accomplished by just letting the door close behind him. Why fuss with sharp edged broken glass?

As for the reach....maybe Mary had got into the habit of leaving the latch "on" when she left the room for that reason, maybe it was more difficult for her to reach through than it was for Joe...maybe she was skittish about doing it too.

I think it would be very valuable if we knew Marys nightly habits that week prior to the murder...its the first time she is truly alone in the room...she moved in with Joe, and Maria was there until the 2nd or 3rd....be interesting to know what new procedures she may have adopted for her own safety and now that she could do as she pleased in the room.

Cheers I

[IchabodCrane]

Hi Michael
I meant to suggest the killer locked the door from outside with a key, so it could no longer be opened from the inside.
The reasoning being the failure of police to open the door from inside even after they had removed the entire window frame (!).
Cheers
IchabodCrane

[perrymason]

Hi Michael
I meant to suggest the killer locked the door from outside with a key, so it could no longer be opened from the inside.
The reasoning being the failure of police to open the door from inside even after they had removed the entire window frame (!).
Cheers
IchabodCrane

Hi Icabod,

I see where your going....but I dont believe the window frame was removed before the door was forced by McCarthy at 1:30, there is some question I think as to whether it was done to more easily remove Marys remains later on, near 5pm or so.

If Barnett had a key, that would mean he spent a few weeks while with Mary pretending that he didnt have it...thats why he adopted the pane/latch method in the first place..... when locking it was important to them. If anything, if that was Barnett I would think he just left the latch "on"....hed know thats the easiest way to lock it without the key.

I think you should go with the evidence on this....the key to that door was lost weeks before Mary dies, and as a result Joe has to stick his hand through the window when they want to leave the room locked. Which means he would need to repeat that when they return....perhaps drunk and late at night...

Why would he go through that charade for weeks while living with Mary when he would have had to shove his hand through a broken window many times as a result?

That infers some sort of maliciousness on him that I dont think we have evidence for at this point....keeping a secret like that from Mary for weeks.

Cheers Ichabod

[Heinrich]

Joseph Barnett admitted to being at the scene of the crime on the night of the murder and that he had had a falling out with Mary Kelly. As her domestic partner and living at the same address until recently, he was well aware of how to gain access to the dwelling anytime he wished. As a fish porter he would have had a filleting knife. This gives him the motive, opportunity, and means to be the prime suspect.

[Wickerman]

Joseph Barnett admitted to being at the scene of the crime on the night of the murder and that he had had a falling out with Mary Kelly. As her domestic partner and living at the same address until recently, he was well aware of how to gain access to the dwelling anytime he wished. As a fish porter he would have had a filleting knife. This gives him the motive, opportunity, and means to be the prime suspect.

I think Abberline knew all that...

Jon S.