the key

[Heinrich]

Of these, Barnett stands head and shoulders above the rest for the reasons I enumerated in Post #41.

Make that Post #217

[Heinrich]

.... take your pick. Surely Mccarthy, Bowyer, Julia, Maria Harvey, Barnett, Bloctchy, and a host of other customers would have had the opportunity to see how to undo the latch. In fact, Barnett is no more suspicious than the whole lot of them.

Of these, Barnett stands head and shoulders above the rest for the reasons I enumerated in Post #41. You mention the landlord, John McCarthy and his employee, Thomas Bowyer, who, in contrast to Joseph Barnett, had a relationship with Mary Kelly only as a tenant. Furthermore, Bowyer did not even know Mary Kelly's name according to his statement at her inquest! When asked by the coroner whether he had often seen Mary Kelly, Bowyer said he had but added, without any prompting, that he knew the previous witness, Joseph Barnett. Joseph Barnett had lived with Mary Kelly at that address until recently. Unlike Joseph Barnett who admitted to having been with Mary Kelly on the night of the murder, the last time Bowyer saw her, according to his statement, was a few days before that. Remember too that neither the landlord nor Bowyer was able to help the police to get into the premises without bashing down the door and this was McCarthy's property! As for motive, well, slaughtering and mutilating a tenant for being behind on the rent is too incredible for words.
As for the "blotchy" man, in contrast to Joseph Barnett, he was never seen before nor since and his existence depends on the say-so of one eye witness, not much to go on.
I do not share you willingness to believe that a woman is the killer nor that it could have been anyone under the sun, Mike.

[Fisherman]

Consider it a done deal, Mike!

Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fish,

If you're convinced, that's all I need.

Mike

[Fisherman]

Mike:

"In fact, Barnett is no more suspicious than the whole lot of them."

Exactly so - but try convicving Heinrich of that ...!

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

But if the Key...that is what the thread is about, yes? If the key had been lost some time before the murder, and if Barnett Left Kelly because she had been hanging about with ladies of ill-repute (mush as herself), and if she had returned to a life of prostitution (though she probably never left the game), she would have either always left her room unlocked, or reached in the windown and opened the latch as Abberline said was easy to do. If the former, anyone off the street or in the Court could have killed her. If the latter, take your pick. Surely Mccarthy, Bowyer, Julia, Maria Harvey, Barnett, Bloctchy, and a host of other customers would have had the opportunity to see how to undo the latch. In fact, Barnett is no more suspicious than the whole lot of them.

Mike

[Rubyretro]

Mary might have had her face cut through the sheet because she pulled it up herself, to 'hide'...

Remember the fab scene in 'Withnail and I', when Withnail and 'I' hide under
a sheet in bed when they are terrified of the gamekeeper roding outside their cottage ? (Johnny Depp played homage to it in Sleepy Hollow)

The best comedy imitates the ridiculous things that we do in life and which people can instantly recognise as 'true'.

I think that after realising that she was being attacked...and calling out...it would have been a tragically comic response to the knife to have sought to protect herself from JTR by hiding her face under the sheet.

Which suggests that Mary was in bed at the time of her murder.

[Phil H]

Abby

I recognise the conventional view of the sheet.

My last post was really referring to the idea proposed a few posts earlier which suggested the "bedroll" and its position indicated a morning time of death. My confused musings were trying to work out how, if that was the case, the sheet came to be where it was.

Phil

[Abby Normal]

One thing is certain - the bedding (i.e what comprised what has been called the bedroll) was not in place when the body was found.

Nevertheless, on reflection, I am puzzled that the sheet is stated to have been cut (isn't it? - hence the discussion about whether the killer covered Mary's face?).

So why was the sheet loose and covering Mary if she had already arranged the bed for the day? (I assume by this is meant that it could be used as a place to sit?)

Phil

Hi Phil
The cut sheet would IMHO point to MK being asleep/passed out on her bed and the killer cutting through the sheet as it was already covering MK or pulling it over her and then cutting through it (perhaps pulling the sheet over her face and cutting through it because he did not want her to see him because she knew him?)

[Phil H]

I think I can see the idea - a bedroll placed lengthwise along the wall side of the bed, would create a sort of "ottoman" on which Mary, Joe of their visitors could lounge during the day. Given the sparse furnishings and restricted space, it might have been a practical solution to the seating problem.

Phil

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

it is not hard to imagine that her bedroll would have been presentable until required once more.

But people make their beds look presentable by "making" them in the usual way, i.e. by stretching the bedding over the mattress and tucking it in neatly, preparatory to getting into it when required. I've never heard of anyone making their bed by rolling their blankets up as compactly as possible.

All the best,
Ben

[Phil H]

One thing is certain - the bedding (i.e what comprised what has been called the bedroll) was not in place when the body was found.

Nevertheless, on reflection, I am puzzled that the sheet is stated to have been cut (isn't it? - hence the discussion about whether the killer covered Mary's face?).

So why was the sheet loose and covering Mary if she had already arranged the bed for the day? (I assume by this is meant that it could be used as a place to sit?)

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben,
According to Dew, she [ Kelly] always wore a smart white apron, what we know of Mary she does appear to have done her best to keep herself clean, despite her circumstances, in which case, like most women during the ages, it is not hard to imagine that her bedroll would have been presentable until required once more.
I would say I have suggested some points worth discussing, after all T.O.D is extremely important , and we may have been guilty of just accepting what has been assumed over the years, rather then using own own powers of observation.
Regards Richard.

[Heinrich]

.... As to whether anyone would have been aware of this means to gain access, it beggars belief, in my opinion,that just anyone would have been testing doors and windows at random in that tiny court, looking for a woman to disembowel. On the off chance that it was not a self locking bolt, and had to be engaged manually on leaving, I would consider that the killer had to be someone with intimate knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the room and it's occupant, on that particular night, and that Kelly was a selected victim, and not a random pick up.

Quite so, harry. Even the owner of the property was unaware of the ease with which entry could be gained. The simplest explanation is to heed the one person who spoke with authority about the lock and missing key, who is relied upon by the police for this information, who had actually lived there with Mary Kelly, and who admits to have visited her on the night of the murder. Joseph Barnett's involvement is all over this scene like no one else.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

I really don't see any pictorial evidence of a rolled-up blanket or "bedroll". It appears to have been bunched up, and perhaps partially stuffed down the gap between bed and wall, presumably by the killer to facilitate his grisly activities. I don't see what motivation anyone would have for "rolling" up a blanket CCF-style.

All the best,
Ben