the Myth!

[Ryan_Miller]

Where does the myth of Joseph Barnett spitting into the open grave of Mary Jane Kelly originate from?

[Robert]

Hi Ryan

I believe it comes from a letter sent by a lady to the author Dan Farson recounting something that she claimed that her mother had told her she'd seen. Calling it an outright myth might be a bit strong, but the grave-spitting incident has certainly never been verified.

Richard Nunweek is advancing on this thread even as I type, and will "fill you in" (if you'll forgive the expression) on the grave stuff.

[Sam Flynn]

Fleming.

[Celesta]

Why would Joe do that? It certainly would have brought more suspicions on him, it seems.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ryan,
Robert you are dead right[ excuse the pun] never miss a cue.
Ryan,
The episode came to light after a Associated Redifussion programme aired in 1959, which went under the heading 'Farsons guide to the British' concentrated two of its episodes on 'Jack the Ripper'.
After one of these, the late Dan Farson the presenter asked for members of the public to write in, if they believed they could help solve this fascinating victorian mystery, and as you can imagine, many people took him up on the offer, several sack fulls in fact.
One of these letters caught Farsons eye, and it came from a elderly lady who said her mother [ long dead] had told her that when she was a teenager , her and a friend were visiting a friends grave in Leytonstone cemetary , and during their visit, the funeral of Mary Jane Kelly aka Davis took place.
After the service had finished the girls noticed one of the mourners a man stayed behind , and when he considered that he was alone, parted the boards that then covered the grave with his feet, and spat several times in the hole apparently on the coffin.
Farsons informant then proceeded to say that her mother and her friend were so afraid by such a episode , that they decided to say nothing for fear of of the man seeking them out.
Farson and the TV company were considering doing a programme discussing that alleged event, but apparently that letter went missing along with a lot of others [careless secretary] and that idea was shelved.
Most of Casebook call this pure second hand rubbish, just plain oral history, however I do not.
To put all the case in one post is a long job, however remember this.
According to a sketch made at the graveside depicting the service, eight people were present, six women, and two men.
This was accurate, as that was the official mourning party that left Whitechapel in two coaches.
We know Joseph Barnett was one of the men, but the other is not identified , the sketch does not show a priest in his attire so one can assume that the other male was a close friend or relative.
So in a nutshell if the alleged grave spitting took place, and was carried out by a male... who would be chief suspect?
Was the spitting a token of love, that some have concluded, or pure hate?
Best Regards
Richard.

[Ryan_Miller]

Thank you, and I apologize for throwing the word "myth" around. I recalled that there wasn't much evidence to the claim so I assumed it was another myth.

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Ive seen a sketch of the mourners that day, and it does show a man over the grave when the mourners are moving off, but no-where but in the account Richard provided is Joe Barnett named as that man.

Best regards all.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
The sketch that I have seen does not show mourners moving away, it depicts a total of six women and two men, the women to each side, and the two men apparently about to pay last respects lined up in file.
The solid fact is, one of the two males has to Barnett, the other I always assumed was the priest, although as the man in front is not dressed as a roman catholic priest, it would appear he was another mourner, perhaps Fleming, perhaps a relative , perhaps a representive of Mccarthy, who knows.
My case has always been the most logical person to have stayed behind to pay last respects, without drawing attention to himself, was the poor womans common law, and therefore if this alleged incident did take place the likely culprit, which may be a case of frustration, or a killers final insult, was proberly Joseph Barnett.
Regards Richard.

[perrymason]

....My case has always been the most logical person to have stayed behind to pay last respects, without drawing attention to himself, was the poor womans common law, and therefore if this alleged incident did take place the likely culprit, which may be a case of frustration, or a killers final insult, was proberly Joseph Barnett.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

I dont think Id agree that the most logical man to have a moment alone with the grave is Barnett, its been my experience that those closest to the deceased usually leave first from a graveside, not last, but people who had a relationship with the deceased that was not openly known about, or people who had history with the deceased, but not a current one.

Meaning...people who are the closest usually play an active role in the ceremony and at the interment, but people who would be unwelcome at a family grave....her poor whore friends for example, or an ex-lover or boyfriend, would be perimeter mourners, who move in for a closer" goodbye" when the main mourners move off.

Spitting on someone is an insult, as I would imagine it is when spitting on their coffin, this speaks to unresolved hatred of the deceased. Joe Barnett was on good terms with Mary Kelly when last seen with her, enough that Maria felt safe leaving them alone. He came daily to give her money, when he had some, after the breakup. We dont have one witness within Marys group of friends that suggests Mary was dealing with Barnett begging to move back in, and in court, he seems comfortable with the state of their current status. Because he objected to her selling herself he left....and because she had no other saleable skills, she sold herself, so the premise that supposedly caused him to leave was still very much part of Marys life.

So...where is the anger, the sadness, the pleading, the hatred that we would see from him previously, if he was the one that spit?

We do know that when Flemming lived with her elsewhere, he wanted to marry her. Ever hear anyone say Barnett and her were as tight as that? We know that she was seeing Flemming while with Barnett in Millers Court, and yet we dont see him take Joes place as man of the house.

Could his emotions be fairly categorized as volatile and unresolved? Potentially yes.

Cheers Richard

[Ryan_Miller]

Is this image of the mourners posted on Casebook?

[Robert]

Hi Ryan

http://casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/9482.html

[Sam Flynn]

Is this image of the mourners posted on Casebook?

What happened next...

[Chris Scott]

The account of Kelly's funeral says, regarding the mourners:
Two mourning coaches followed, one containing three, and the other five persons. Joe Barnett was amongst them, with someone from M'Carthy's, the landlord; and the others were women who had given evidence at the inquest.Presumably the other male shown in the sketch was the "someone from McCarthy's." The way this is worded makes it pretty clear this was not McCarthy himself, so a prime candidate would be Thomas Bowyer who worked for Mccarthy and found the body. McCarthy had a son, who at the time of Kelly's death would have been about 14 years old, possibly too young to represent his father at the funeral.
The women who gave evidence at the inquest were:
Mary Ann Cox
Elizabeth Prater
Caroline Maxwell
Sarah Lewis
Julia Venturney
Maria Harvey
This agrees with the number of women listed as mourners. So it would seem likely that the people at Kelly's funeral were the six women listed above plus Joseph Barnett and, possibly, Thomas Bowyer.

[kensei]

Interesting how the background in the sketch is blurred. Anyone who's been to Leytonstone Cemetery will know that if it wasn't it would be a much more elaborate sketch. I was there two months ago and had never in my life seen such a huge expanse of fancy statuary, just a sea of it, as far as the eye could see. It's an incredible thing to see.

[KatBradshaw]

I don't think I have seen that picture before although I have seen a picture from the funeral. Any ideas if there is another one??
It would be nice to have a proper list of who attended. I am sure that Barnett would have but it would be nice to know who saw Mary laid to rest.