Was It Personal?

[joelhall]

for what its worth im with glenn on this. i find it hard to buy into barnett being the killer of the other c4 victims.

firstly the reasons for are less than persuasive. it doesnt seem odd he moved out just before for example - shed hardly bring other men back whilst he was there. also it doesnt seem plausible she wouldnt have spotted something. if theyve been together for a while & he suddenly starts killing wouldnt she notice blood or a change in behaviour?

the other four killings seemed rushed & random, leaving a public scene of invasive murder. the dorset street scene resembled carnage likened to something dante couldnt have dreamt up. this wasnt a throat cut with a quick ripping after, but the complete dismantling & desecration of a human being.

it would seem this murder wasnt about getting that rush, it took time & looks like the killer was driven by total hatred.

however, i do not find the arguement for barnett committing the dorset street murder convincing either. i find the idea of fleming reasonable. i find the idea barnett doing this less promising. there was no previous report (or even following) of his showing domesticly violent tendencies. indeed he chose to leave rather than scare her. fleming on the other hand is said to have 'mistreated' her (specifics not known, but given the victorians liking for understatement of the distasteful, we assume this means abuse).

if he could kill his partner then & get off, i doubt hed have calmed down in the following years.

joel

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Also, there is no known difference in the Kelly murder in terms of victim selection, approach, geographic locality, time of day of the murder, etc.

Well I totally agree on that the victim selection (if we're talking about prostitutes), geography and time of day correlates with the other Ripper victims, and I have never stated otherwise.
But you're wrong when you mention 'approach' since the killer's approach in Miller's Court is fundamentally different than in the others. Even a rough reading of the crime scene indicates this.
However, if one wants to be believe that this diffrence is a result of changed type of location or factors like crammed space, is of course a matter of personal opinion and interpretation. But don't say that the killer's approach show 'no difference'.

The argument for excluding Kelly is VERY weak, and is mainly derived from the fact that the more extensive mutilation on Kelly tends to obscure the fact that fundamentally, the wounds are similar in character.

Well, as I've said numerous times before, the excessive nature of the throat cut and its similarity with the throat cuts of the other victims - as well as the flaps mentioned by Jon - are elements that makes me hold the door open for the murder being perpetrated by the Ripper.
But as far as the mutilations in general goes, it is quite pointelss to talk of 'similarity in wounds' since Kelly was butchered and stripped all over her face and body. To find any similarity in that mess is to create links that aren't there, although - yes - there are a few similarities. Where one may differ is if those are significant enough. Judging from the state of Kelly's body, it is impossible to talk about the 'character' of the wounds.

Kelly's victimology is also quite different from the others in the way she had two relationship with two men at the time, and none of them very succesful, which inturn creates motives for her male associates. It is interesting how the 'pro-Ripper camp' continue to dismiss this, although such victimology information is vital and central for anymurder investigation. Which is why husbands and boyfriends are the first suspect in domestic crimes to begin with.

But he certainly would not have rejected her as a potential victim when he found out she did.

I agree, that's a fair point.

All the best

[joelhall]

Well I totally agree on that the victim selection (if we're talking about prostitutes)...

i think ive mentioned this elsewhere, but ive always thought it more likely they were chosen because they were unaccompanied women out late, the worse for drink, rather than due to their profession.

just my tuppence.

[c.d.]

i think ive mentioned this elsewhere, but ive always thought it more likely they were chosen because they were unaccompanied women out late, the worse for drink, rather than due to their profession.

just my tuppence.

Hi Joel,

But I don't think that unaccompanied women could be persuaded to go into deserted alley ways or back yards.

c.d.

[joelhall]

my point was unaccompanied drunk women would be the easiest to overpower.

[Mitch Rowe]

But as far as the mutilations in general goes, it is quite pointelss to talk of 'similarity in wounds' since Kelly was butchered and stripped all over her face and body. To find any similarity in that mess is to create links that aren't there, although - yes - there are a few similarities. Where one may differ is if those are significant enough. Judging from the state of Kelly's body, it is impossible to talk about the 'character' of the wounds.

Its all in Bonds PM. He seems to have made it possible!

Heres some advice:
Attack Bonds report. Say its a modern fake. Its your only chance.

[CraveDisorder]

Thanks for all the replies, has made fascinating reading!!!

How do we know for sure that Barnett had moved out the week before? By this I mean is this his word or did the police manage to corroborate this? Also have been interested in the suggestions about Hutchinson, what do we know about his relationship with Barnett, did they know each other only through MJK etc? Did they know each other at all? From what I gather I would assume that Barnett would have a dislike of Hutchinson if he was abusive.

Very interesting!!

[DVV]

Hi Joel,

But I don't think that unaccompanied women could be persuaded to go into deserted alley ways or back yards.

c.d.

...unless the killer was George Clooney or Brad Pitt.
And, anyway, neither my wife nor my mother would have followed them.

Amitiés,
The Latino Macho

[c.d.]

my point was unaccompanied drunk women would be the easiest to overpower.

But overpower where? He needed to get them someplace secluded.

c.d.

[DVV]

CD's right Joel, it has to be unaccompanied prostitutes, of course.

[DVV]

Thanks for all the replies, has made fascinating reading!!!

How do we know for sure that Barnett had moved out the week before? By this I mean is this his word or did the police manage to corroborate this? Also have been interested in the suggestions about Hutchinson, what do we know about his relationship with Barnett, did they know each other only through MJK etc? Did they know each other at all? From what I gather I would assume that Barnett would have a dislike of Hutchinson if he was abusive.

Very interesting!!

Hi Crave Disorder,
Hutchinson and Barnett didn't know each other - at least, Barnett never said that he knew Hutch, and Hutch never said that he knew Barnett.
Barnett had shifted from Mary's room, there is no mystery here. Don't forget that the police has examined him both as a witness and as a possible suspect. Lying would have been dangerous for him.
In my opinion (and in some others' opinion), Hutch was the killer, and he was Fleming...
But that's another story, another thread...

Amitiés,
David

[Monty]

Different MO, killed indoors, significantly younger victim, uterus not removed from scene, Id say arguements against Kelly are far from weak.

Monty

[DVV]

Well, Kelly was a prostitute, killed by knife in Spitalfields in November 1888, the killer took part of the body, the throat was cut to the vertebrae... I admit there are discrepancies with the previous murders, but each murder is somehow different from the other. Has the killer made a vow such as: "I will never kill a young Irish prostitute indoors!"

Amitiés,
David

[Monty]

How do you know he didnt?

Theres no documentary or witness evidence stating Eddowes was a prostitute, only circumstantial. Most likely she was but when in Bingley.

Im not pushing for or against her inclusion, I am stating that arguements against are not weak. They are just and reasonable.

Monty

[Elias]

Some interesting theories suggested but I think the more brutal nature of the MJK murder was simply down to the time he had. There's evidence to suggest he was disturbed during all the other canonical murders, and the cuts to Eddowes' face may have only been the start of what he intended to do had he had more time.