Suspect Witnesses?

[Wickerman]

. . . A reasonable assessment, but if the parcel was leaving the print office with Parcelman, why were they lingering outside the premises?

We have to remember, no-one suggested the direction of movement by Parcelman was out of the yard, but only that he stood around in Berner St.
Krantz, working in the office, never said anyone picked up any parcel for any reason, nor that anyone delivered anything.

The idea of someone delivering flyers at 1.00 am is in my view a somewhat desperate argument to try justify. This sounds like someone believing Victorian London functioned like modern America, with door-to-door flyer delivery, except they don't even do that over night.
Whoever thought that up has no appreciation of the dangers of walking the dark backstreets of the East End through the night.

It is also dubious to suggest a connection between Parcelman and the printing office, that is not indicated by the evidence.

[Wickerman]

What if the landlord had told them to be out on Saturday so his next tenants could move in? What if his new tenants could only move on a Saturday for some reason?

A lot of rooms were rented furnished, his wife may only have had to pack a suitcase with clothes, a box with some cups & plates & cutlery, and a bundle of bedding. Not a huge task when most people stayed local, maybe moving to neighboring street at furthest.
If he left the move to his wife there can't have been much work involved.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Exactly Wick.

btw…a general point…others have mentioned an issue with the quote function but this is the first time that I’ve experienced it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

A reasonable assessment, but if the parcel was leaving the print office with Parcelman, why were they lingering outside the premises? If Parcelman was delivering to the print office, then Goldstein could have been transporting from the print office to Spectacle Alley. Pure speculation of course, as is all this discussion.

Cheers, George

I don't think they are walking to Spectacle Alley together. The hypothesis is that he has left the club or office alone and stopped to talk to Stride on the street, for some reason. Maybe she is looking for work at the club and wants info on who she can talk to.

Is there any point to this speculation? Well, I want a situation that is reasonably compatible with Fanny Mortimer's claim to have been at her doorstep for most of the 12:30 to 1am period. That doesn't mean we should suppose she was observing the street for 25 of those 30 minutes, but 15 or so seems reasonable, whereas a few minutes just before 1am does not. If Parcelman can speak to Stride briefly, then be on his way, Fanny could conceivably get to her door without seeing him. As for her, I can only suggest that around 12:40 she left Berner St.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What if the landlord had told them to be out on Saturday so his next tenants could move in? What if his new tenants could only move on a Saturday for some reason?

This scenario assumes the move was established, but the report refers to his wife's expected move. If the move was 'in the bag', why is Schwartz on the street in the middle of the night trying to determine if this move has occurred?

The report is telling us that when Israel leaves their lodgings, the move is probable, but not definite. After many hours' absence, are we expected to believe that he is trying to ascertain if his own address has changed, or is it the case that his wife's address has changed, while his address remains as it was when he went out?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

They will never run out of copies while they have their own printing office, so that explanation doesn't work.

It does work if we assume that they do not have unlimited printing resources.

Why ask a question we have no answer to?
There can be any number of legitimate answers.

Most of those 'legitimate' answers will avoid coming to terms with what is evident in the Star report - Schwartz is expecting his wife to move out during his absence, and he is out on the street after midnight, attempting to ascertain if her moving has been successful. How fascinating that this is occurring on Berner St. Where is his wife?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We have to remember, no-one suggested the direction of movement by Parcelman was out of the yard, but only that he stood around in Berner St.
Krantz, working in the office, never said anyone picked up any parcel for any reason, nor that anyone delivered anything.

The idea of someone delivering flyers at 1.00 am is in my view a somewhat desperate argument to try justify. This sounds like someone believing Victorian London functioned like modern America, with door-to-door flyer delivery, except they don't even do that over night.
Whoever thought that up has no appreciation of the dangers of walking the dark backstreets of the East End through the night.

It is also dubious to suggest a connection between Parcelman and the printing office, that is not indicated by the evidence.

Leon Goldstein was 'travelling' on those dark backstreets, carrying a nice black bag.

As for Krantz not mentioning anyone picking up a parcel, that's true. It's also true he did not mention Comrade Yaffa. It's also possible that leftover (from the meeting) copies of Arbeter Fraint, departed from inside the club, not the editor or printing offices. Morris Eagle would have been reluctant to admit seeing Stride on the street if the man she was speaking to was a member of the club.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A lot of rooms were rented furnished, his wife may only have had to pack a suitcase with clothes, a box with some cups & plates & cutlery, and a bundle of bedding. Not a huge task when most people stayed local, maybe moving to neighboring street at furthest.
If he left the move to his wife there can't have been much work involved.

The logistics of moving is not the issue.

We have no good evidence that BS or Pipeman were ever identified, yet the Star tells us that serious doubts have arisen over Schwartz's story. Who would have been in a position to create so much doubt that investigations based on Schwartz's statement are to cease, pending further information? Who was in a position to supply this information?

Well let's see. His wife is probably moving out. He is on Berner St after midnight attempting to ascertain that the move has taken place. He gives his address as 22 Ellen St, to the police. What address does his wife give, when the police locate her?

[GBinOz]

We have to remember, no-one suggested the direction of movement by Parcelman was out of the yard, but only that he stood around in Berner St.
Krantz, working in the office, never said anyone picked up any parcel for any reason, nor that anyone delivered anything.

The idea of someone delivering flyers at 1.00 am is in my view a somewhat desperate argument to try justify. This sounds like someone believing Victorian London functioned like modern America, with door-to-door flyer delivery, except they don't even do that over night.
Whoever thought that up has no appreciation of the dangers of walking the dark backstreets of the East End through the night.

It is also dubious to suggest a connection between Parcelman and the printing office, that is not indicated by the evidence.

Hi Jon,

There are no suggestions at all about Parcelman after being seen by Smith, but possibly Parcelman tells Stride that he has a parcel to deliver, and that he needs to visit the Loo. She says she will wait for him in the gateway. Eagle returns and thinking she is soliciting, attempts to move her along, but is warned off by Pipeman. Pipeman then kills Stride, making it an opportunistic ripper murder OR Stride is murdered by Goldstein who has emerged from the club, in which case it is not a ripper murder.

One might not believe that Victorian London functioned like modern America, but there is no doubt that Krantz was still there when Stride's body was found. Perhaps Parcelman visited the Loo on the way to the delivery and interrupted the Stride murder when he emerged - hence the reported chase. Perhaps he was delivering flyers to Krantz, or perhaps to Goldstein to convey to Spectacle Alley.

There is no evidence to indicate where Parcelman was when Stride was standing in the gateway. It is all just speculated possibilities.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

This scenario assumes the move was established, but the report refers to his wife's expected move. If the move was 'in the bag', why is Schwartz on the street in the middle of the night trying to determine if this move has occurred?

The report is telling us that when Israel leaves their lodgings, the move is probable, but not definite. After many hours' absence, are we expected to believe that he is trying to ascertain if his own address has changed, or is it the case that his wife's address has changed, while his address remains as it was when he went out?

Schwartz probably had to go somewhere (maybe for work) and he had a long walk and didn’t get back until late. Or, same suggestion, but on his way back he stopped off for a pint or three with friends. He gets back and goes to find out if the move has occurred. I really don’t see why you would find this mysterious Andrew. There are numerous things that occurred for which an explanation is absent but that’s the case in life.

[Wickerman]

It does work if we assume that they do not have unlimited printing resources.

Why do they need to be unlimited, printing their newspaper is a regular procedure.
Those who order printing supplies know how much paper to order.

Most of those 'legitimate' answers will avoid coming to terms with what is evident in the Star report - Schwartz is expecting his wife to move out during his absence, and he is out on the street after midnight, attempting to ascertain if her moving has been successful. How fascinating that this is occurring on Berner St. Where is his wife?

I really think you are trying to create a mystery where none exists.
We don't know why Schwartz was gone all day, he may be gone all day, every day. He may only be gone all day on Saturday's, we don't know.
Why do you think this is fascinating?
And, why should the reporter tell us where his wife was?
You do realize it is an editors job to cut the story down to just the essentials - space is a premium in a newspaper.

[Wickerman]

Leon Goldstein was 'travelling' on those dark backstreets, carrying a nice black bag.

Delivering flyers door-to-door is a slow process that exposes the deliverer to many hidden dangers. Goldstein looks like he was aware of potential dangers, he was described as walking 'very fast' through the street.
Which tends to confirm my point.

. . . Morris Eagle would have been reluctant to admit seeing Stride on the street if the man she was speaking to was a member of the club.

Why would he be reluctant?
He said there were men and women in the street when he passed through they yard.