Suspect Witnesses?

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

Serving someone near where a murder is then committed would indeed not be forgettable...if you had foreknowledge of what was about to happen. Packer was asked if he saw anyone standing about OR anyone suspicious. What he was being asked was did he see anyone lurking about in a suspicious manner. One couple among many in the street that night could not have aroused his suspicions. He was not seeing anything unusual, anything that he hadn't seen on countless previous occasions.

Cheers, George

No he was asked did he see anyone standing about or anyone acting suspiciously. So he was asked explicitly did he see anyone standing about. He told Sgt White he hadn't. Yet he had seen someone standing about- a man and a woman no less, for a half an hour almost directly beside the murder scene.

Then once approach by Le Grande, a known fraudster and confidence trickster he suddenly remembers this couple standing about and that he had sold the grapes and even commented upon them. I think it is fair to say and easy to come to the conclusion that Packer was used by Le Grande for whatever purpose, whether that was to show the Vigilance Committee he was really good at his job, or he wanted the reward, as he was sure Parcel Man was the killer so best to put a description as close to PC Smith's as possible through Packer.

But be honest, do you think Parcel Man killed Stride and if so, as Wickerman does, do you think it is clouding your judgement.

[Doctored Whatsit]

To be honest Doc, I doubt there ever was an official police opinion. The 'no-one ever saw the Ripper' is just the opinion of one official, and the rest of that quote refers to 'except the PC in Mitre Sq.', which is more likely an erroneous reference to the PC in Berner St. (PC Smith), because that official did confuse details of the Mitre Sq. murder with Berner Street.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but the memo by Insp. Moore is not at all clear, and unfortunately I don't have a copy of the original, this is the modern typed version below.

Metropolitan Police.
CID Scotland Yard.
4^th October 1888.

Referring to attached Extract from 2^nd Edition “Evening News”, of this date.

I beg to report that as soon as above came under my notice I at once (in the absence of Inspr. Abberline at C.O.) directed P.S. White, “H”, to see Mr. Packer, the shopkeeper referred to, and take him to the mortuary with a view to the identification of the woman Elizabeth Stride; who it is stated was with a man who purchased grapes at his shop on night of 29^th Ins.
The P.S. returned at noon and acquainted me as in report attached; in consequence of which Telegram No. 1 was forwarded to Chief Inspr Swanson and the P.S. Sent to C.O. to fully explain the facts.

Telegram No. 2. was received at 12.55pm from Assistant Commissioner re same subject; in reply to which Telegram No. 3 was forwarded.

Henry Moore, Inspector.

What is unclear about this is the date of the memo is 4th Oct., but reference is then made to the 2nd edition of the Evening News, of the same date.

The Evening News is, as stated, an evening publication. In general evening publications hit the presses between 3:00-5:00 pm. A 2nd edition would follow about 5:00-6:00 pm, I don't have specific times for the Evening news but if Insp. Moore read, or was given the article then it must have been in the evening of the 4th.
So, if he directed Sgt. White to go see Packer that must have been the same evening.
But, the second paragraph tells us that the P.S. (Sgt. White) returned at noon, but it is already evening when Moore first became aware of the story.

Then, on Sg.t White's report he says "on the 4th" he was directed to go find Packer, and that about 4:00 pm he found Packer at his shop (house), so how could he have returned "at noon"?
And yet, it seems inconceivable that Moore would let this wait until the morning of the 5th, in such a high profile case.

All these activities cannot have happened on the same day, if they are both reacting to the Evening News story of the 4th Oct.

I have to wonder if Scotland Yard had not received a story about Packer before the 4th, perhaps on the 3rd. Insp. Moore only realized Abberline had not taken up the investigation due to him being 'absent', so the police were late in responding. The task was assigned to Sgt. White on the morning of the 4th.
So, why do both memos (1st by Moore, 2nd by White) refer to the Evening News dated 4th Oct.?
Which is why I would like to see the original, if those lines of reference appear to have been added later in a different hand as a means of explaining what these memos are with reference to.

If this is the case, then what was the original source that brought Packer's story to the attention of police?

Hi Jon,

You are right to be confused! It seems that the Evening News journalist saw Packer on the 3rd, and it published the article on the 4th, but Sgt White and AC Bruce also date their reports on the 4th!

The Evening News must have had a morning edition, I suppose, or Inspector Moore was a time-traveller.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

You are right to be confused! It seems that the Evening News journalist saw Packer on the 3rd, and it published the article on the 4th, but Sgt White and AC Bruce also date their reports on the 4th!

The Evening News must have had a morning edition, I suppose, or Inspector Moore was a time-traveller.

I have researched the history of the Evening News and it doesn't seem they ever ran a morning paper in 1888 or any other period.

Yet, the first line of their story, as I have previously referred to, was written in the morning, but by whom?

"We are enabled to present our readers this morning in the columns of the Evening News with the most startling information . ."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

The article does say Packer has been interviewed twice before this report is committed to paper, but the writer is not Grand or Batchelor. Someone else perhaps at the paper, is the author.

Alternately, I wondered if this story originated at a News Agency, and the Evening News bought the story?

[Doctored Whatsit]

Alternately, I wondered if this story originated at a News Agency, and the Evening News bought the story?

I admit to being confused by the information provided! The only thing I can think of is that the same article appeared twice on the 4th, some paper published it in the morning edition, but perhaps credited it to the Evening News, and then the Evening News repeated it in the evening as expected. I don't think that the Evening News had a "sister paper", but the story must have appeared in the morning somehow. There must be an answer, but I don't know what it is!

[New Waterloo]

I don't think we can entirely write Packer off as a witness. After all he did live very close to the club and was standing at his window/serving hatch the night of the murder. We may dispute times and details of what he says but I think he is an important witness in some respects. Several have questioned as to why Packer would change his story and in particular the description of the man with Stride.

Doctored Whatsit details the following about the change of description;

The police suspect was already published in the Monday morning papers - it was the man seen by PC Smith.
Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance

Packer suspect, 1st desc. from the Evening News:
Middle aged, perhaps 35 years; about five feet seven inches in height; was stout, square built; wore a wideawake hat and dark clothes; had the appearance of a clerk; had a rough voice and a quick, sharp way of talking.

Packer suspect, 2nd desc. from the summary by A.C.B.:
a young man from 25-30 about 5.7. with long black coat buttoned up – soft felt hat, kind of Yankee hat rather broad shoulders – rather quick in speaking, rough voice. I put the man down as a young clerk. He had a frock coat on – no gloves.

As we can see in the 2nd description Packer describes two different types of coat. A long black coat is not the same as a frock coat

So what is going on here.?

Interestingly our other witnesses either describe a frock or short coat (PC Smith) or a long coat (Brown)

I have a couple of suggestions,

The light is not great and Packer has only an oil lamp to see by. In his observations which would have been casual (as he didn't have any reason to look carefully as he didn't know a murder was about to be committed) he has become confused and in fact saw Stride with earlier short coat man (Smiths man) and also with a man wearing a long coat (Browns man) so his descriptions are muddled. We have to remember if we are to believe Brown then she has to swap her man friend at some point.

OR

and I think this is more likely, the man who he sold the grapes to was long coat man and that as he mentioned in later reports to the press he had seen in the area before. Packer is frightened by what he knows. He is initially uncooperative but then says what happens but puts the blame (as it were) onto the man who fits PC Smiths description, deflecting from long coat man who lives in the area and he half knows. Packer is worried about reprisals.

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

I admit to being confused by the information provided! The only thing I can think of is that the same article appeared twice on the 4th, some paper published it in the morning edition, but perhaps credited it to the Evening News, and then the Evening News repeated it in the evening as expected. I don't think that the Evening News had a "sister paper", but the story must have appeared in the morning somehow. There must be an answer, but I don't know what it is!

The article appeared in the "Fifth edition"

Where numbers 1 to 4 went are anyone's guess?

[The Rookie Detective]

I don't think we can entirely write Packer off as a witness. After all he did live very close to the club and was standing at his window/serving hatch the night of the murder. We may dispute times and details of what he says but I think he is an important witness in some respects. Several have questioned as to why Packer would change his story and in particular the description of the man with Stride.

Doctored Whatsit details the following about the change of description;

The police suspect was already published in the Monday morning papers - it was the man seen by PC Smith.
Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance

Packer suspect, 1st desc. from the Evening News:
Middle aged, perhaps 35 years; about five feet seven inches in height; was stout, square built; wore a wideawake hat and dark clothes; had the appearance of a clerk; had a rough voice and a quick, sharp way of talking.

Packer suspect, 2nd desc. from the summary by A.C.B.:
a young man from 25-30 about 5.7. with long black coat buttoned up – soft felt hat, kind of Yankee hat rather broad shoulders – rather quick in speaking, rough voice. I put the man down as a young clerk. He had a frock coat on – no gloves.

As we can see in the 2nd description Packer describes two different types of coat. A long black coat is not the same as a frock coat

So what is going on here.?

Interestingly our other witnesses either describe a frock or short coat (PC Smith) or a long coat (Brown)

I have a couple of suggestions,

The light is not great and Packer has only an oil lamp to see by. In his observations which would have been casual (as he didn't have any reason to look carefully as he didn't know a murder was about to be committed) he has become confused and in fact saw Stride with earlier short coat man (Smiths man) and also with a man wearing a long coat (Browns man) so his descriptions are muddled. We have to remember if we are to believe Brown then she has to swap her man friend at some point.

OR

and I think this is more likely, the man who he sold the grapes to was long coat man and that as he mentioned in later reports to the press he had seen in the area before. Packer is frightened by what he knows. He is initially uncooperative but then says what happens but puts the blame (as it were) onto the man who fits PC Smiths description, deflecting from long coat man who lives in the area and he half knows. Packer is worried about reprisals.

NW

Interestingly Packer subsequently speaks to the press about the same man he saw, has been following him and effectively stalking him.

This has always been put down to Packer desperately wanting to take another bite of the fame cherry, in a bid to get himself into the public eye.

But what if he was telling the truth?

Imagine if Packer was actually the main key witness to the Stride murder.

Le Grand's rapid effort to intercept Packer may well suggest that Le Grand had his own vested interest in the case.

It's all a bit of a mystery when it comes to looking at Packer's integrity, and trying to establish whether he helped or hindered the truth of the case.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Rookie I think you make a very important point about Packers later report to the press about seeing the same man and being in fear of this man effectively stalking/threatening him.

It could well be that Packer was seeking more attention but you are correct when you say that there appears a presumption that this is the case. I don't think this later encounter should be completely disregarded.

I am not very good at working out the timings and not really keen on getting to bogged down with that but who is to say that overcoat man that Brown saw with Stride didn't buy her grapes or hang around the club with her. I think we often think (well I do) that Browns couple are just stationary outside the Board School. It appears that they were not there when Brown went to get his supper so perhaps they were nearer the club or Packers hatch at some point and then moved to the corner or the other way round.

We know that Stride was with Parcel man, who was wearing a short coat at approximately 1235am according to PC Smith. Perhaps Parcel man leaves Strides company shortly after PC Smith walks by and leaves the area or go's into the club and Stride left on her own bumps into overcoat man who suggests a bit of shall we say 'activity' and she says 'not tonight' (or whatever the exact words were)

That makes sense to me because perhaps she is waiting or hoping for Parcel mans return. They must have been getting on fairly well as they had spent some time together if he is the same man Best saw earlier in the pub.

NW

[jerryd]

This article might answer a few of the questions asked here?

Le Grand of the strand - General chat - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (Post #37)
Bear in mind, the paper that wrote the article, The London Evening News and Post (1889) is the same paper as the earlier 1888 version, The Evening News.

*You need to scroll down on the post to see the article for some reason

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have researched the history of the Evening News and it doesn't seem they ever ran a morning paper in 1888 or any other period.

Yet, the first line of their story, as I have previously referred to, was written in the morning, but by whom?

"We are enabled to present our readers this morning in the columns of the Evening News with the most startling information . ."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

The article does say Packer has been interviewed twice before this report is committed to paper, but the writer is not Grand or Batchelor. Someone else perhaps at the paper, is the author.

Alternately, I wondered if this story originated at a News Agency, and the Evening News bought the story?

Hi Wick,

I found some interesting information in an 1897 article by Michael MacDonagh called "In the Sub Editor's Room" published in "The Nineteenth Century: A Monthly Review":

"Formerly an evening paper was an evening paper. The first edition appeared about two o'clock; but in the race for public favour and support between "evenings;" in the fierce desire of each paper to be ahead, even by a few hours, of its rivals – the hour of publication has waxed earlier and earlier, until now all the halfpenny evening papers of London publish at ten".

The Nineteenth Century and After - Google Books

Might the Evening News, during the intense news period of the Ripper murders in October 1888, not have published its first two editions in the morning?