Suspect Witnesses?

[Doctored Whatsit]

Det. Insp. Edmund Reid - Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose.
Times 6 Oct.

Dr. Blackwell - I noticed a bunch of geraniums and maidenhair fern on her chest.
The People, 7 Oct.

Witness John Gardner - I have been to the mortuary, and there she was with the dahlias on the right side of her jacket.
Evening News 1 Oct.

Maybe, they should have asked a woman?

Thanks Jon!!!! Apparently the East End in 1888 was full of people who didn't know the difference between a rose, a geranium, and a dahlia!!! They aren't remotely alike, but thanks for the info. I am truly astonished!!!

Nevertheless, Packer's flower was white at first, then red and white, when it was actually red. I don't see that Harstein's alleged claim about white petals is necessarily relevant, because we don't know enough about the two sisters' stories unfortunately, and the involvement of the fraudster Le Grande in the evidence doesn't help!

My point would be that Packer's description of the flower changed, just as his timings changed, what he allegedly saw changed, his alleged suspect got younger, and then became potentially an American. There is no way the police could have used him as a witness, especially as the police surgeon's evidence was that no grapes were found nor had been eaten by Stride. And the alleged sighting of grapes by witnesses as reported in newspapers disappeared. Louis D was reported as seeing grapes in Stride's hand, but at the inquest, he said he did not notice what position her hands were in.

Much of what Packer alleged with regard to the flower, the grapes and the age of the suspect, and then changed could well be the result of reading what was actually contained in newspaper reports. We cannot help but notice that the announcement of a significant reward was made after Packer saw Sgt White the first time, when he reported seeing nothing whatever, but before the second time, when he suddenly had a major story. Packer didn't help his case by later reporting that he saw the murderer again in the street on the 27th of October, and then said in November that a customer told him that his cousin was believed to be the killer.

We have to be very cautious about Packer's alleged evidence.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I was raised to be polite so I will let you go first. Remember now it is all relevant witnesses.

c.d.

How's your response shaping up? Almost complete?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I too find it difficult to accept that "a parcel done up in newspaper ... about 8 inches long and 6 or 8 inches wide" is a reasonable description of a piece of open newspaper holding grapes. It wouldn't be "a parcel done up", as it would have clearly been open at the top, and as for length and width, it would have been more or less round. Although I agree that fruit may well have been wrapped in newspaper on being sold in 1888, the Evening News interviewed Packer, and reported that he put the grapes in a paper bag.

"Well, they hadn't stood there more than a minute when the man stepped a bit forward, and said, 'I say, old man, how do you sell your grapes.'"

"I answered, 'Sixpence a pound the black 'uns, sir, and fourpence a pound the white 'uns.'" Then he turned to the woman and said, 'Which will you have, my dear, black or white? You shall have whichever you like best.'"

"The woman said, 'Oh, then I'll have the black 'uns, 'cos they look the nicest.'"

"'Give us half a pound of the black ones, then,' said the man. I put the grapes in a paper bag and handed them to him."

If we really are dealing with Parcelman and not Paper Bag Man, then what is the source and destination of the parcel? If either of those was the printing office at the back of the club, perhaps we should consider the mysterious (to us) character of Yaffa, who was not mentioned by Joseph Krantz at the inquest, in contrast to the immediately following edition of Der Arbeter Fraint:

... Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate.

[c.d.]

How's your response shaping up? Almost complete?

Sorry to disappoint you, Andrew but I don't respond to "gotcha" questions which yours obviously was. I simply don't have the time and certainly not the inclination.

Nor do I bark on command.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon!!!! Apparently the East End in 1888 was full of people who didn't know the difference between a rose, a geranium, and a dahlia!!! They aren't remotely alike, but thanks for the info. I am truly astonished!!!

Nevertheless, Packer's flower was white at first, then red and white, when it was actually red. . .

You're welcome Doc.
I'm intrigued why you think the flower was red?

I don't see that Harstein's alleged claim about white petals is necessarily relevant, because we don't know enough about the two sisters' stories unfortunately, and the involvement of the fraudster Le Grande in the evidence doesn't help!

Do you believe Spooner was involved in the conspiracy?
Spooner - ". . and some red and white flowers pinned on her breast".
That makes three witnesses all seeing white petals.

The East London Advertiser might alleviate your concern over the colours of the flower, they wrote:

There is one seeming discrepancy between the story of Packer and the facts as published; it has been reported that a red flower was found in the murdered woman's bosom, and Packer states that she wore a white flower. This is sufficiently easy of explanation, since Packer does not say that the woman wore only a white flower, but that his attention was particularly drawn to the white flower from its standing out against the black of her dress, and the absence of the flower from her jacket when found by the police is unimportant in view of the evidence of Miss Harstein, who subsequently saw fragments of it in the passage.


I think the above sounds reasonable, given that the press were not aware of the internal memo by A.C.B., a summary of a statement to police by Packer. The sentence concerning the flower reads:
"She was dressed in black frock & jacket, fur round bottom of jacket a black crape bonnet, she was playing with a flower like a geranium white outside & red inside. I identify the woman at the St. George's mortuary as the one I saw that night ".

Much of what Packer alleged with regard to the flower, the grapes and the age of the suspect, and then changed could well be the result of reading what was actually contained in newspaper reports.

Have you found any mention in the press about Stride wearing a red, or red & white flower?

I don't doubt he read about the murder in the papers, something had to jog his memory about serving a couple that night.
Packer had told Sgt. White he did not see a man & woman enter the yard - that was true, or someone loitering around acting suspicious - presumably a lone male - which was also true.
We know from other witnesses there were couples in the street, but none went into the yard. And no single men loitering suspiciously, at least before Packer shut up shop about 12:30 am.

[New Waterloo]

Lets look at this logically. (well I will have a go) We have two possibilities. That Stride was killed by the person we know as JTR or somebody else. In a way JTR is easier to explain. He is the serial killer wandering around killing women for whatever reason.

OR

Somebody else killed Stride. This is more difficult as the question arises as to why anybody other than some deranged person would cut her throat.

This makes Kidney a very viable suspect in my opinion. He's a violent man annoyed at Stride with previous episodes of violence directed at her.

If it wasn't Kidney then we need to look for a reason she is killed by somebody else. Some kind of dispute, disagreement heightened by alcohol (BS appeared drunk) etc. As was the case with Kidney. In other words another reason. I am suspecting something to do with Spooner

Its a close call because Strides man friend witnessed by Best earlier does seem a bit odd (including behaviour) so he's my favourite for JTR.

I think we could get somewhere following either strand but along comes red bearded Pipeman and messes things up.

Sorry its all a bit muddled but just spouting some thoughts

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Sorry to disappoint you, Andrew but I don't respond to "gotcha" questions which yours obviously was. I simply don't have the time and certainly not the inclination.

Nor do I bark on command.

c.d.

So, your request that I go first was made under false pretences.

I was asking you to outline your basic position - that BS man didn't kill Stride, another man came along and did that - but you regard doing so as responding to a gotcha question. Well, if that is how I respond, then why not respond in kind? If your position is so weak that you're unwilling to explain it, let alone defend it, then I suggest you dump it for something more resilient to criticism.

[Wickerman]

... Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate.

We may wonder what Krantz & Jaffa were doing in the editor's office at that time of night.

If you look up the Jewish name "Yaffa", apparently it means "beautiful", it's a girls name.