Suspect Witnesses?

[Wickerman]

Cheap & easy way to make a newspaper parcel.

https://youtu.be/-LJoPDHKM74

[Trevor Marriott]

I think the police in the Stride murder were swayed by Eddowes murder a short time later and probably relaxed the Stride investigation in the belief that she was a ripper victim. It is plainly clear that they did not investigate Kidney fully as they should have done. There is clear evidence to at least subject him to intense questioning.

Hello Trevor,

Do we actually know anything at all about the police investigation of Kidney and what it entailed?

c.d.

Well, we know he was spoken to as a witness and gave evidence at the inquest, but as can be seen from post #409, there were some conflicts regarding other witnesses, which it seems the police failed to address.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

Here's my problem with Kidney. I myself have had no training whatsoever in criminal investigations. But even I can look at Kidney and say wow, that guy has to be the immediate number one suspect. And as you say, Trevor even today an estranged husband/boyfriend is the first people they consider. Were the police in 1888 unaware of that?

The police had no way of knowing that Kidney could not have been the Ripper.

If they believed that Stride was killed by the Ripper does that mean they had no interest in catching her killer if they believed he was not the Ripper?

So (in my opinion only) unless the police at the time were incredibly stupid and/or grossly incompetent, they would have questioned Kidney and asked for an alibi. If he had one they checked it and verified it. If not, they would have asked Schwartz to identify him. I simply can't see any other scenario.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Here's my problem with Kidney. I myself have had no training whatsoever in criminal investigations. But even I can look at Kidney and say wow, that guy has to be the immediate number one suspect. And as you say, Trevor even today an estranged husband/boyfriend is the first people they consider. Were the police in 1888 unaware of that?

The police had no way of knowing that Kidney could not have been the Ripper.

If they believed that Stride was killed by the Ripper does that mean they had no interest in catching her killer if they believed he was not the Ripper?

So (in my opinion only) unless the police at the time were incredibly stupid and/or grossly incompetent, they would have questioned Kidney and asked for an alibi. If he had one they checked it and verified it. If not, they would have asked Schwartz to identify him. I simply can't see any other scenario.

c.d.

There is no suggestion that Kidney was the Ripper, and the problem with Schwartz and others from the crime scene is that the witness descriptions of the major players were viewed in poor lighting conditions. Witnesses are asked whether they could identify the people they describe. We don't know the answer to that.

Stride was not in that location, just to get some fresh air it is clear that she was prostituting herself, so along comes Kidney, the worst for alcohol, and finds her there, he pulls her into the yard entrance, they argue, and he cuts her throat.

The Police, when they interviewed him, probably did ask for an alibi; whether he was able to give one, we do not know but there are discrepancies in the inquest testimony which should have sounded the warning bells from the police perspective

Stride was not a Ripper victim. The circumstances surrounding her murder are totally different from the other murders

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

Stride was not a Ripper victim. The circumstances surrounding her murder are totally different from the other murders

Did you forget to include "in my opinion" in that statement, Trevor?

c.d.

[Doctored Whatsit]

You think I wouldn't check the court record?


The Standard, 6 Oct. 1888.

"Eight inches long and six or eight inches wide".

I too find it difficult to accept that "a parcel done up in newspaper ... about 8 inches long and 6 or 8 inches wide" is a reasonable description of a piece of open newspaper holding grapes. It wouldn't be "a parcel done up", as it would have clearly been open at the top, and as for length and width, it would have been more or less round. Although I agree that fruit may well have been wrapped in newspaper on being sold in 1888, the Evening News interviewed Packer, and reported that he put the grapes in a paper bag.

As for the flower, Packer told the Evening News that Stride had a white flower in her hand. He told A C Bruce that she had a "flower like a geranium, white outside and red inside". She had, in fact, a red rose with a maidenhair fern. It is rather difficult to confuse a white, oops no, I meant red and white geranium, with a red rose and a maidenhair fern.

[Trevor Marriott]

Stride was not a Ripper victim. The circumstances surrounding her murder are totally different from the other murders

Did you forget to include "in my opinion" in that statement, Trevor?

c.d.

Didn't need to include "in my opinion", the facts surrounding the murder are there for all to see, except for those who don't want to see

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

Didn't need to include "in my opinion", the facts surrounding the murder are there for all to see, except for those who don't want to see

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hmmmm....Now where have I seen 'case closed" before?

c.d.

[FrankO]

Michael Kidney must be the main suspect for the murder of Stride, there were many discrepancies in his testimony which the police it seems did not investigate

it was documented that they had a torrid and often violent relationship. During the inquest, there was conflicting evidence given by witnesses, and by Michael Kidney himself, relating to when he stated he had last seen her alive, see below excerpts from inquest testimony of Kidney and other witnesses.

...

Despite his and the other conflicting witness testimony evidence, Kidney was never arrested or even interviewed at length and her murder remained unsolved, but even today her murder is still regarded by some as having been committed by Jack the Ripper, despite the overwhelming evidence to suggest it may have been domestically motivated and that Kidney could have been her killer.

Extracts from my book "Jack the Ripper - The Real Truth"

Thanks for your reply, Trevor. I'm not convinced that Kidney killed Stride, but it's a pity indeed that the police doesn't seem to have investigated Kidney and I agree that was probably because they concluded, after Eddowes's murder, that Stride fell victim to the Ripper, too. Poster AP Wolf, many years ago, pointed to the fact that Kidney also showed some odd behaviour at the inquest.

"[Coroner] You know of nobody whom she was likely to have complications with or fall foul of? - No, but I think the police authorities are very much to blame, or they would have got the man who murdered her. At Leman-street Police-station, on Monday night, I asked for a detective to give information to get the man.
[Coroner] What information had you? - I could give information that would enable the detectives to discover the man at any time.
[Coroner] Then will you give us your information now? - I told the inspector on duty at the police-station that I could give information provided he would let me have a young, strange detective to act on it, and he would not give me one.
[Coroner] What do you think should be inquired into? - I might have given information that would have led to a great deal if I had been provided with a strange young detective.
Inspector Reid: When you went to Leman-street and saw the inspector on duty, were you intoxicated? - Yes; I asked for a young detective, and he would not let me have one, and I told him that he was uncivil. (Laughter.)
[Coroner] You have been in the army, and I believe have a good pension? - Only the reserve.
A Juror: Have you got any information for a detective? - I am a great lover of discipline, sir. (Laughter.)
The Coroner: Had you any information that required the service of a detective? - Yes. I thought that if I had one, privately, he could get more information than I could myself. The parties I obtained my information from knew me, and I thought someone else would be able to derive more from them.
Inspector Reid: Will you give me the information directly, if you will not give it to the coroner? - I believe I could catch the man if I had a detective under my command.
The Coroner: You cannot expect that. I have had over a hundred letters making suggestions, and I dare say all the writers would like to have a detective at their service. (Laughter.)
Witness: I have information which I think might be of use to the police.
The Coroner: You had better give it, then.
Witness: I believe that, if I could place the policeman myself, the man would be captured.
The Coroner: You must know that the police would not be placed at the disposal of a man the worse for drink.
Witness: If I were at liberty to place 100 men about this city the murderer would be caught in the act.
Inspector Reid: But you have no information to give to the police?
Witness: No, I will keep it to myself."

[c.d.]

Frank, do you really think that the police were that stupid and incompetent not to have investigated Kidney?

And even if the police didn't think Stride was a Ripper murder they were still required to investigate it on its own were they not?

c.d

[FrankO]

Frank, do you really think that the police were that stupid and incompetent not to have investigated Kidney?

And even if the police didn't think Stride was a Ripper murder they were still required to investigate it on its own were they not?

c.d

I don't think they were stupid, c.d., but rather that they had tunnel vision. Anyway, as I said to Trevor, I'm not convinced that it was Kidney who killed Stride.

[c.d.]

I don't think it was Kidney either. If it had been him I would have expected a very loud argument, for Stride to have been slapped around and stabbed multiple times in a fit of rage. Not a cold, calculating cut to the throat.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

. . . Although I agree that fruit may well have been wrapped in newspaper on being sold in 1888, the Evening News interviewed Packer, and reported that he put the grapes in a paper bag.

And, post 421 demonstrates how a newspaper is folded to make a paper bag. The same way it has been done for 200 years or more.

As for the flower, Packer told the Evening News that Stride had a white flower in her hand. He told A C Bruce that she had a "flower like a geranium, white outside and red inside". She had, in fact, a red rose with a maidenhair fern. It is rather difficult to confuse a white, oops no, I meant red and white geranium, with a red rose and a maidenhair fern.

"Miss Eva Harstein . . . . stated that, after the removal of the body of the murdered woman she saw a few small petals of a white natural flower lying quite close to the spot where the body had rested".
Evening News, 4 Oct. 1888.

[Wickerman]

Red and White Dahlia.
Various conflicting types of flower were suggested by different men.
Since when were men any good at identifying flowers?

[Wickerman]

Det. Insp. Edmund Reid - Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose.
Times 6 Oct.

Dr. Blackwell - I noticed a bunch of geraniums and maidenhair fern on her chest.
The People, 7 Oct.

Witness John Gardner - I have been to the mortuary, and there she was with the dahlias on the right side of her jacket.
Evening News 1 Oct.

Maybe, they should have asked a woman?