Suspect Witnesses?

[Wickerman]

. . .

The question is, did Brown see Stride?

Because if he didn't, then where was Stride at this point?

When Brown the couple in Fairclough, then IF the woman wasn't Stride, then the only place that Stride could have been at the point, was either in the yard, or in the club.

If she was in the yard, then was she already dead by the time that Brown came out of the Chandlers shop?

Hi Chris.
Well, Packer identified the body, and also the flower on the woman who was with a man standing at his window (about 11:45 pm).
The press version states: "the white flower which the woman wore, and which showed out distinctly against the dark material of her jacket".
White petals were found scattered in the yard.
Packer said the white flower was distinct against Stride's black jacket - Brown said there was nothing distinct that stood out in the darkness.

Packer says Stride and her man crossed the road to stand opposite his shop (No. 44) for a while, then came back to the club-side of the street at about 12:10-15 am. He says "because the pubs had just closed", perhaps the Nelson on the corner had just closed?
After this he closed his shutters, that was the last he saw of them.

Roughly 15-20 mins later, PC Smith saw Stride with a man carrying a newspaper parcel, they were standing opposite the club.

About 12:40-45 am. James brown saw a couple on the corner, he could not see a flower on the woman, or a parcel in the mans hands.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It seems to me that Brown's attention was drawn to the couple standing in Fairclough St, at the point when he heard the woman say " no, not tonight, some other night"

It's important to note that Brown had already walked past the couple and he looked back at them (as opposed to observing them before he approached them)

The idea that Brown's focus was drawn over/back to the couple, would indicate that Brown had sensed some hostility in the general tone of what was being said, and the body language of the couple.

And considering a murder was then committed just 20 yards away within around 10 minutes of Brown seeing the couple, then this may be of significance.

Right, it was only when the woman said that that Brown turned to look. Not what tonight?

If Brown did indeed see Stride in that corner, then it means that she would have then needed to walk from Fairclough and around the corner to the yard where she would then be murdered.

This is problematic based on Goldstein's route and timing, as well as Mortimer's statement.

Yes, it's tight.

The question is, did Brown see Stride?

Because if he didn't, then where was Stride at this point?

Good question.

When Brown [saw] the couple in Fairclough, then IF the woman wasn't Stride, then the only place that Stride could have been at the point, was either in the yard, or in the club.

If she was in the yard, then was she already dead by the time that Brown came out of the Chandlers shop?

Where does that leave those who suppose the BS man was not the killer?

Brown's sighting seems to be the crucial piece to decipher.

Yes. He was almost certain he had seen Stride. Perhaps that means those who disagree are almost certainly wrong.

[Wickerman]

. . .

Brown testified that he saw the couple on his way back from the chandler's shop. So if Eagle was BSman, the Schwartz incident could have taken place while Brown was in the chandler's shop and before the couple arrived at the corner. So was Stride killed by Pipeman, Goldstein, Eagle or Parcelman (or someone else). IMO, more likely one of the first two, based entirely on supposition and speculation.

Rather than Eagle be BS-man, I notice the description of the man seen by Marshall seems a lot like BS-man.
(though, the description is still pretty generic)

Marshall suspect - a black cut-away coat and dark trousers, Middle-aged, a round cap, with a small peak. About 5ft. 6in. Rather stout, Decently dressed, more the appearance of a clerk.

Schwartz suspect - a man, aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

Marshall also seemed certain Stride was the woman, but they were walking away from the direction of the club.
This was about 11:45 pm, they could have circled around the block, along Boyd, up Backchurch Lane, then east along Fairclough.
Or perhaps Stride dumped him and picked up someone else, and walked towards Berner St. along Fairclough.
About 11:45 pm Packer did see Stride with a man, he said they came from the Backchurch Lane end, he must have meant Fairclough, as Berner St. does not end at Backchurch Lane, Fairclough does.


Marshall may have seen BS-man with Stride about an hour before he attacked her - why?
Because he saw her in the gateway with someone else?

[FISHY1118]

I didn't say Schwartz was involved in Stride's attack.

Dr. Blackwell: I removed the cachous from the left hand, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and fourth finger, and had become almost hidden. That accounted for its not having been seen by several of those around.

How could this be possible if Stride was thrown to the footway outside the gates?

So why the story about schwartz and his wife ? Im not following.

[GBinOz]

Rather than Eagle be BS-man, I notice the description of the man seen by Marshall seems a lot like BS-man.
(though, the description is still pretty generic)

Marshall suspect - a black cut-away coat and dark trousers, Middle-aged, a round cap, with a small peak. About 5ft. 6in. Rather stout, Decently dressed, more the appearance of a clerk.

Schwartz suspect - a man, aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

Marshall also seemed certain Stride was the woman, but they were walking away from the direction of the club.
This was about 11:45 pm, they could have circled around the block, along Boyd, up Backchurch Lane, then east along Fairclough.
Or perhaps Stride dumped him and picked up someone else, and walked towards Berner St. along Fairclough.
About 11:45 pm Packer did see Stride with a man, he said they came from the Backchurch Lane end, he must have meant Fairclough, as Berner St. does not end at Backchurch Lane, Fairclough does.


Marshall may have seen BS-man with Stride about an hour before he attacked her - why?
Because he saw her in the gateway with someone else?

Hi Jon,

The couple that Marshall saw might have circled around the block, along Boyd, up Backchurch Lane, then east along Fairclough as you speculate, but I wonder why they would have done so. They may equally have been headed for the George IV pub for a quick drink before closing.

I am inclined to think that the man seen with Stride by Best and Gardner was the same man seen with her by Packer and Smith. IMO Marshall and Brown were not looking at Stride. Both those witnesses were in dark locations, neither saw a flower, Marshall saw a cap rather than a hat, and Brown didn't know the nature of the headwear at all. Best described a Billycock hat (like a bowler), Packer said "soft felt hat , kind of (?) hat (variously transcribed as yankee , quaker or hunter )", and Smith described a hard felt deerstalker (could this be Packer's "hunter"?). Marshall described the man he saw as "mild speaking". Packer's description was "rather quick in speaking , rough voice".

It seems to me that Stride and her gentleman friend left the Bricklayers due to unwanted attention. There were plenty of pubs in the area, including the George IV, that they could have visited and subsequently approached Packer's shop from the south. The puzzlement is that neither Best nor Gardner nor Packer mention the man carrying a parcel. In Packer's case it may have been obscured behind his window counter. My conjecture is that that the parcel was publishing material for Arbeter Fraint, and that Parcelman left Stride in the gateway while he delivered the material, but stopped in the Loo on the way. When he came out of the Loo Stride was lying on the ground with her throat cut, perhaps with her killer standing over her (hence Echo story of a chase).

So, that's my current thinking based entirely on speculation and conjecture.

Cheers, George