Suspect Witnesses?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, but if you notice, the page also includes Mortimer at "four doors away", the editor mixed reports purchased from News Agencies with reports from their own journalists. Which is what we see in that Evening News paper.

In the Interview with a Neighbour report, he says:

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

Presumably "three doors from the gateway" would refer to #36 if the club front door is included, otherwise he was outside #34. Either way, it seems we have a photo of the location.

36 Berner Street............... - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

Given what we have from the other sources, its probably not impossible to fit Schwartz in. The timing would have to be tight, and the statements of witnesses all somehow left out the presence of Schwartz, Pipeman, the assault in the gateway, and the fleeing departure past the Boardschool.

PC Smith, James Brown, the 'sweetheart' couple on the corner, Packer, Eagle, Mortimer & Lave all somehow missed Schwartz et. al. passing through, which seems highly unlikely.

I think what we have is a real world example of Schrodingers Cat, in the form of Schwartz's Tabby

If we look at 12:45 in police records Schwartz exists, but when we look at 12:45 in the inquest record, he doesn't.

Interesting.

In the map attached to post #1 of the thread above, we can see the path of taken by Leon Goldstein - along Berner St, left into Fairclough and then right into Christian St. Number 22 is right at the edge. That location is a mere stone's throw from a railway arch. In the Echo report of a man pursued, the chase seemingly occurs along Fairclough St, in an easterly direction. Coincidently, Schwartz said that when running from Pipeman, he ran as far as the railway arch.

[Wickerman]

Apologies I am repeating a bit here. The house in which Brown resides is next to the Beehive pub where Spooner states he stood for some time with his girlfriend. This is likely. Remember however that his timings are quite a bit out. He does state he left the pub in Commercial Road at closing time.
. . .

Yes, I agree with most of the points you hi-lite, yet, as you know, Spooner was not so far out in his timing as given at the inquest.

Closing time was midnight, so then he walked down Christian-street to the corner with Fairclough and stood there for about 30 minutes, he said:

"On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman."

He continued:
"We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."

Spooner & his girl were standing outside the Beehive in Christian-street, but this was now after 1:00 am., because he saw Diemschutz & Kozebrodski run past him eastward, and then on their return, which by now must be at least 1:05 or 1:10, when he joined them on their return to Dutfields Yard.

All that sounds reasonably close to being accurate.

Which means he did not stand at the corner of Berner & Fairclough, though he will have passed through that corner in a hurry with the two Jews. Whether his girl followed and kept up is anybodies guess, but on the night of a murder, the girl is not going to stand by herself on any corner - no-one knows if the murderer is still close-by in those dark streets. Obviously she will follow along behind to the yard, don't you think?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Unlike everyone else who was stuck in the yard for hours, after the gates were closed, it's almost as though Spooner was given an 'early mark'.

Witness: The legs of the deceased were drawn up, but her clothes were not disturbed. When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Inspector Reid: I believe that was after you had given your name and address to the police? - Yes.

And had been searched? - Yes.

And examined by Dr. Phillips? - Yes.

Perhaps he was allowed to leave early because he had behaved admirably in guarding the body and helping Lamb with the gates, and perhaps he made a plea to exit the yard so he could reunite with his lady friend just outside.

So, who did Fanny talk to?

Mortimer: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

If she spoke to Spooner and friend, it would seem that James Brown was probably correct about seeing Stride with Overcoat Man.

[New Waterloo]

Yes, I agree with most of the points you hi-lite, yet, as you know, Spooner was not so far out in his timing as given at the inquest.

Closing time was midnight, so then he walked down Christian-street to the corner with Fairclough and stood there for about 30 minutes, he said:

"On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman."

He continued:
"We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."

Spooner & his girl were standing outside the Beehive in Christian-street, but this was now after 1:00 am., because he saw Diemschutz & Kozebrodski run past him eastward, and then on their return, which by now must be at least 1:05 or 1:10, when he joined them on their return to Dutfields Yard.

All that sounds reasonably close to being accurate.

Which means he did not stand at the corner of Berner & Fairclough, though he will have passed through that corner in a hurry with the two Jews. Whether his girl followed and kept up is anybodies guess, but on the night of a murder, the girl is not going to stand by herself on any corner - no-one knows if the murderer is still close-by in those dark streets. Obviously she will follow along behind to the yard, don't you think?

Hello Wickerman,

Yes I agree with what you are saying but still quite troubled by the fact that nobody mentions Spooner's girlfriend. Even when he gives evidence he states that before he joins Diemschutz and Kozebrodski he was with his girlfriend but from then on says 'I' and not 'we'. She just seems to disappear.

Nobody says we came across a man and his girlfriend standing by the Beehive. Its all the word of Spooner regarding this actual piece of the jigsaw.

It is a good suggestion by NotBlamed that perhaps Spooner was allowed to leave the yard a bit early to join up with his girlfriend who was perhaps waiting outside the yard but when questioned at the inquest wouldn't he have said that.

I do agree she would have followed him to the yard unless of course she lived close to the club and just went home on her own or stood chatting in the street.

Also it seems an odd place for them to stand. I think Spooner lived quite close to the Beehive so at some point would have to walk his girlfriend home which is why I am interested in where his girlfriend lived. I am playing a wild card and suggesting that the girlfriend was the person he married, Catherine Sullivan I believe. In 1871 there was a family of Sullivans living in Backchurch lane (including a 4 year old Catherine) Obviously that was many years before 1888.

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

All of the statements from people during the search for a police officer do not mention Spooner being with a girl at the time he ran to Berner Street with the 'searchers'

This is true, but if Spooner had hailed the searcher's as they ran back along Berner St, he may have become slightly detached from his lady friend. That may have been enough for men focused on other matter's to barely notice her presence at the time and forget about her completely at the inquest.

[New Waterloo]

A further thought. If we are to accept what Spooner says and we are happy with what Brown says then we definitely have 2 couples in the area at about 1245am only a few yards apart.

Would anybody be able to suggest a distance from the Beehive corner to the junction of Fairclough and Berner Street.

Also all these people were moving. When Spooner leaves the pub in Commercial Road at closing time (12 midnight) it would only take him and his girlfriend about 5 minutes to walk to the Beehive. Where did they go before reaching that point?

If the pair on the corner are Stride and Overcoat Man, where is cutaway coat man? I think there is a simple answer to this and we are just not seeing it.

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner's whereabouts between 12:00 and 12:30 are unaccounted for, as far as we know.

It's quite possible that Parcelman and Overcoat Man are one and the same. That would leave open the question of what happened to the parcel by the time Brown sees him. Possibly it's hiding under that long coat.

Brown: I was in the road just by the kerb and they were up against the wall. I heard the woman say, "Not tonight, some other night." This made me look round at them. I am almost certain the deceased is the woman who spoke.

If this is not some younger couple, with the male being turned down by the female, then it would seem the man wants her to go somewhere. There is very little time left before Diemschitz turns into the street. Even less in the case of Leon Goldstein, if the usual sequence of events is accepted. Yet very soon she will be somewhere else, so how did he persuade her to go the yard? What's the attraction? The Irish Times, Oct 1. might offer a clue.

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

Who was responsible for bringing woman and girls to the club, and how did they entice them? What did the women and girls do once there, and how much and what with were they paid?

[New Waterloo]

It is possible parcelman and Overcoat Man are the same but PC Smith doesnt seem to hesitate at the inquest when he says the man with who he believed was the deceased Stride was wearing a 'cutaway coat' which I believe was a sort of slightly 'up market coat', maybe also called a 'frock coat'. In any case shorter in style.

The article in the Irish Times reproduced by NotBlamed is really interesting. It does add another dimension. If there is singing and dancing at the club it may be more innocent than it sounds having women and girls 'brought' to the club. In other words to give some balance to the dancing and generally having a good time. Maybe the women and girls came from the non-Jewish community. I guess there may be a more read person who could comment on this.

Wasn't it the case that BSM was pulling Stride away from the entrance. Perhaps she just wanted to go into the club to hear the music and dancing. Thinking about it doesn't Packer say something about this.

Will keep reading. Thanks NotBlamed

NW