Suspect Witnesses?

[Wickerman]

This very much sounds like the same couple.

Hi Chris.

That is your conclusion, but conclusions can wash over the details.
Some have drawn conclusions by ignoring details.

What I want to know is, how a girl who told us she was present from 12:00-12:30, but did not stand at the corner, could be the same girl who was present from 12:45-1:05 while standing at the corner?

Explain please.

[Wickerman]

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.


It is established almost beyond doubt that the poor creature met her death some time between twelve and one o'clock. And yet no one seems to have heard a struggle, or a groan, or the slightest indication of what was going on. From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

Your solution is:

They then walk together along Commercial Road and then back again to the junction with Commercial Road and together they then walk down Berner Street to stand on the corner, where they then remain for about 20 minutes.

Except, that you are ignoring the time window provided by the witness.
She said the whole scenario occurred between 12:00-12:30 am, which must be from when she set off from home (12:00 am) to meet her boyfriend at the top of Berner St., to when she said goodbye to him at 12:30.

Like I said previously, we can all make scenarios work, if we ignore details that do not fit.
The challenge is to include all the known details in any theory.

This proposal also makes it difficult to see the story given by Schwartz playing out in front of them, if they saw and heard nothing.

There is another scenario whereby the couple had stood for 20 minutes at the junction with Commercial Road and Berner St, and just as they said goodnight, a man walks past them heading towards Aldgate as they are standing on the corner of Commercial Road.

The couple then walk down Berner Street as he takes the girl home to her house in Berner St.

So, did they stand for twenty minutes at the junction of Berner and Fairclough? Or at the junction with Berner and Commercial Road?

You're not suggesting Mortimer could see this couple all the way at the top of Berner Street, are you?

[The Rookie Detective]

Your solution is:



Except, that you are ignoring the time window provided by the witness.
She said the whole scenario occurred between 12:00-12:30 am, which must be from when she set off from home (12:00 am) to meet her boyfriend at the top of Berner St., to when she said goodbye to him at 12:30.

Like I said previously, we can all make scenarios work, if we ignore details that do not fit.
The challenge is to include all the known details in any theory.

This proposal also makes it difficult to see the story given by Schwartz playing out in front of them, if they saw and heard nothing.




You're not suggesting Mortimer could see this couple all the way at the top of Berner Street, are you?

The solution is that the couple clearly thought the murder occurred earlier than it actually did.

The girl sets off from her house alone and walks past the gateway a few minutes before midnight (her words) she then continues up to the corner of the street where she meets her boyfriend at the junction of Commercial Road. This means she likely pre-arranged to meet him at midnight.
They then walk along Commercial Road together and then come back again and then continue together as they walk south down Berner Street.
The question is, do they stand for 20 minutes at the junction of Commercial Road and then head together down Berner Street as he takes her home?
Or do the couple finish their Commercial Road walk by walking down Berner St and then standing at the corner of the junction by Fairlclough St for 20 minutes?

The duration of the time the girl starts off alone, walks past the yard, goes to the top of the street, meets her BF at the junction, walks with him along Commercial Rd and then back again, then both walk down Berner Street, then stand for 20 minutes together before saying "goodnight" would take a minimum of 30 minutes.
Therefore, the estimation of 23.55pm to 12.25am would be the minimum parameters.

Of course, it then provides us with another couple seen by Brown.
However, If the sweetheart couple were actually the couple seen by Brown, then it means that the couple's parameters then extend from 23.55pm to as long as 12.50am, the time they were seen by Brown when he left the Chandlers Shop.

Of course, their presence completely obliterates Schwartz's story, and so for Schwartz to be believed and present, the sweetheart couple have to be gone BEFORE he enters Berner Street, and therefore makes the couple seen by Brown....as Stride and her likely killer.

So, either the couple have gone or they haven't.

If they've gone, then Schwartz comes along before Brown sees Stride on the corner.
If they're still there then Schwartz's story is a work of fiction, and the sweetheart couple are seen by Brown...meaning that Stride is only ever seen by Pc Smith around 12.35am.

[Lewis C]

How can you not see a problem with that? Had the murder occurred after Fanny locked up for the night, the amount of blood loss would push Goldstein back to about 12:50. That means Fanny is at her doorstep shortly after 12:40, just after Eagle makes his way up the passage, which was just after Stride was seen by a PC, across the street talking to a man with a parcel.

Without getting into whether or not it must mean exactly this, I don't see a problem with this scenario either.

[Lewis C]

You don't seem to understand the problem. In those 10 minutes, Stride must make her way to the gateway, wait for BS Man, be killed, and her blood trickle down to the side door of club, and Fanny must be at her doorstep to see a man walk down the street carrying a black bag, but see no one enter the gates.

If the Schwartz incident and the murder occurred after Brown passed the couple on the corner, then they would also would have occurred after Fany closed her door. I don't know why you think that Fanny still being at her door after 12:50 is mandatory.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I have thought since you proposed your alternative that there is much to commend your hypothesis of a different street. This effectively eliminates BSMan, Pipeman and Schwartz's observation of the altercation in the gateway. So who of the named players are left for consideration?

Thanks, yes it removes all three, so we are left with Parcelman as the last person seen with Stride before her murder.
The police acknowledged this as he was then identified as a leading suspect.

Morris Eagle, as we know came back to the club about 12:40, and said there likely were people around but didn't take any notice.
He entered the club through the yard door, then went up to join in the singing until someone came up around 1:00 am to say there was a body in the yard.
It doesn't seem practical to suggest Eagle, after walking his sweetheart home, would then return to the club and slash a woman's throat, before heading upstairs to join a sing-song.

Joseph Lave, apparently came out of the club side door to stand in the street about 12:30 am, stood around for 10 minutes, then returned to the club by the same side door at roughly 12:40.
He saw no-one or nothing suspicious.

My question all along has been...where is Parcelman. I would concur with your suggestion that he may be the prime suspect in your scenario, but I would also put forward some other possibilities of those known to be present at the time. Eagle, Lave and Goldstein.

Suspecting Goldstein is too much of a stretch, he passed through the street, had no connection with Dutfields Yard.

I have previously posted evidence that those actually looking at clocks could be mistaken by +/- 15 minutes, and those who are estimating times from a base of said unsynchronised clocks are going to be more uncertain as to accuracy. Eagle and Lave are guessing with their times. Then there is Goldstein.

Yes, stated times are mostly estimates, and primarily based on the quarter-hour chime of church bells.

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis I posted this on another thread but feel it is relevant here -

If BSM killed Liz then there are certain points of conflict [ in my humble opinion ], within this theory.

1 - Schwartz saw a man stop and speak to Liz in the gateway of the club. He then attempted to pull her into the street . First red flag, would BSM actually do that if he intended on murdering Liz ? Why not push her into the darkened passage and attack her there. And if Liz did get in the club before he managed to subdue her, he still could have got away. Yes the same could be said of attacking Liz in the street but there, he is running the risk of someone like Mrs Mortimer seeing him or someone looking through the window from the upper floors of the club for instance.

2- Schwartz says he got as far as the gateway when he saw the altercation happen . Now he must have been more or less mere feet, if that, away from broad shoulders when he witnessed the assault. Again would the perpetrator then go on to deliberately murder Liz when he knows someone was very close to him at the start of the attack and probably got a decent look at him.

3- Schwartz crossed the street and saw pipeman . There seems to be little doubt that BSM saw pipeman as well, since Schwartz first thought the calling out of the word Lipski was aimed at the man with the pipe. Even if Lipski was aimed at Schwartz and not pipeman, again there can be little uncertainty that pipeman was not hid in any shadows etc, and viewable otherwise Schwartz would not think this. So in effect two witnesses.

4- Broad shoulders draws attention to himself by the cry of Lipski. Now are we really to believe he would do this if his main intention was to kill and mutilate poor Liz ?

The only scenario I can think of if BSM was Liz's killer is it was more manslaughter than premeditated murder IE The argument possibly escalated [ or Liz fought back ], and he struck out.
Trouble with this is there is little evidence for it . Liz was probably strangled, possibly by her scarf and then her throat cut swiftly and silently with no one hearing a sound, and yes those damned cachous in her hand plus no defence wounds .
If broad shoulders did kill Liz I would expect more of a full frontal assault with defence wounds , stabs by the knife, perhaps bruising on the face etc

BSM was not Jack, the whole scenario for the two to be one is wrong . Jack did not act the way BSM did [ pre murder ]. Yet if BSM was Liz's killer how come the killing was so similar to JTR. Again , strangulation, sudden and quick strike in the shadows , throat cut .

The answer is someone else murdered Liz that night other than BSM and the prime candidate is JTR.

Regards Darryl

Hi Darryl,

Those are good points. What especially raises doubts for me is your point #1, that BS man tried to pull her into the street, which is the opposite direction from where her body was found. So how did she end up there if that wasn't where BS man wanted her to be? I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, but I would think that any effort by her to get past him and go into the yard would likely fail. If he did kill her, it probably means he changed his mind about where he wanted her to be.

[Wickerman]

The solution is that the couple clearly thought the murder occurred earlier than it actually did.

No, I can't see it Chris.
You are using 'clearly' to enforce your argument, but this couple say nothing about the murder, or anyone related to the murder. So there is no indication they believed the murder took place earlier than anybody else.

These are the four paragraphs, again - note the bold in each paragraph.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.


It is established almost beyond doubt that the poor creature met her death some time between twelve and one o'clock. And yet no one seems to have heard a struggle, or a groan, or the slightest indication of what was going on. From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

They were not even aware a murder had taken place.
However, the first paragraph has the witness (girl) standing on the corner - when the alarm was raised.
She was with her boyfriend.

Yet, the third & fourth paragraphs tell us the couple had already said goodnight at the Commercial Rd. end of Berner Street before any alarm was raised.
Two different couples Chris.

Regardless, one couple, or two, still has no bearing on the murder, though the very fact we acknowledge the couple seen by Mortimer were a sweetheart couple (Mortimer spoke to the girl), means James Brown did not see Stride on the corner.