A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[caz]

Hello Caz,

I underlined the above sections because I think, in the first underlined sentence, that we really dont know for sure where Kidney was that night...so jealousy might be on the table there for sure. In the second underlined section I would agree that there is no "need to call upon someone" who knew Liz, but the evidence such as it is does not preclude the possibility that she is there to meet someone she does know. Or know of. I think its possible that she might have been there hired to clean, that doesnt mean definitively that she knew anyone there beforehand, but it might mean someone there had recommended her. In the case of a date, it seems logical that IF she is there for that reason, she knew the person beforehand. None of this is to suggest it would be either of those parties that in fact killed her, its to try and establish why she is there at all.

I will add that we know of someone who shows up at those gates at a time when Liz should have still been in that immediate area. And he goes into the club...perhaps to collect his pay for the night, and while inside hears that a woman has been found with a cut throat....where he left her. Does he then come forward with that tale to the police? In this case, he says he saw nothing there when he arrived. Was that the truth? Up to you on that, but Im on the fence. I believe she intended to be right where she was at the time she was seen there...why.....thats what we are trying to suss out.

Hi Michael,

Long time no speak!

I too believe that Stride intended to be right where she was at the time she was seen there.

If a woman who is out on her own at night is chatted up by a man, she will soon make up her mind whether to respond in kind, or be more reserved and cautious, or to make her excuses and walk away. If Stride had been approached by any man she did not want to engage with, because he gave off vibes that made her uneasy, she could have done worse than to make her way to the club, where she would find people still around at that time of night, who could provide safety in numbers if required. She need not have gone there expecting to meet a particular individual, and I doubt her killer was someone she trusted and was hoping to see there. The man clearly wanted her dead for whatever reason, and he had the knife to do it, while Stride seemingly had no inkling that anyone meant her serious harm until it was too late. Stranger danger is how I see this one playing out.

The police knew enough about murder to question and try to eliminate anyone who knew or had a relationship with the victim, and Kidney was ruled out accordingly. If there is no evidence that Stride was frightened of Kidney, or was being physically threatened by him, I would have to give him - and the police - the benefit of the doubt.

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

But the more relevant question is would Jack be able to see how she was dressed and conclude date or working and therefore consider her completely off limits or would he need to approach her to find out?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

What there is not is street traffic, the lifeblood of a street walker. She in nice clothing, mints at the ready... men there awake and socializing, lack of potential clients for a street walker, and at that time...to late to go drinking..unless at a semi-private club. These things add up.

I would argue that the lifeblood of a street walker is "men" no matter where they are found. And what was the club full of? Men. And young men to boot.

I am not saying Stride had to be soliciting but it makes sense for a prostitute to make herself as attractive as possible unless there existed a sub class of potential clients who were somehow attracted to shabby clothing and bad breath.

c.d.

Pragmatically speaking, the women who walked the streets of LVP East London would not use money they have made for flowers and mints, ...shelter, food, booze, drugs would use up most of their money, which is why they are out there in the first place. And for a street walker a group of men on the second floor of a Jewish mens club is hardly very useful for them on the street. Yes, she could meet some as they come out,... but again we still have that tricky little issue of Liz Strides concern for her presentation. These women had few clothes. "Good clothing" wasnt something that was worn for "work". Maybe saucy clothing, but these arent call girls, they are street workers. Servicing poor local men, warehousemen, slaughterhousemen, drunks and thieves. Smelly, dirty, bloodied....not the Seville Row type. And lets not forget that she has had no need of street work in the weeks leading up to that night. We hear from associates that she did that sort of work only when she had no alternatives.

One of her lodgemates made the "good evening wear" comment about Liz, indicating a special occasion of sorts. Extra money for a new opportunity cleaning a club maybe, or a date with someone new after leaving Kidney behind? Either can work with how she is dressed and presented, but its far less likely she would prepare that way for a night soliciting the lower parts of society.

[c.d.]

As far as her response of "No, not tonight" we can't be certain of whether it applied solely to that particular individual or was indicative of her mindset for the evening. It could be she had dealings with him before. Maybe he smelled bad, or was rough or had a habit of being reluctant to pay up once activities had finished. Just sayin'.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

She was dressed to impress - relative to her regular attire that would be worn for soliciting.

Hello R.D.,

What is soliciting attire and how does it differ from being "dressed to impress?"

As far as Stride being on a date, what if she was dressed for a date and her date did not show up? What if her date got sick or they had an argument? Now she is by herself, her financial situation a lot worse since leaving Kidney and apparently she has a drinking problem. What if Jack approaches her believing she is soliciting? Can we guarantee with absolute certainty what her response would be?

The whole moral of the story is don't put too much weight on the fact that she might have gone out that evening dressed up for a date. Circumstances can change.

c.d.

That's a very good point indeed.

I would suggest though that based on...

Her last conversation before she left her lodgings
Her attire - it's clear she had made an effort.
Her publicly observed display of affection outside the Bricklayer's Arms
Her recent break from her once tempestuous relationship with Kidney
Her leaving the vicinity of Whitechapel and away from her regular stomping ground
Her alleged rejection of a potential punter by saying "No, not tonight"
The flowers
The Cachou to freshen her breath; all of these when put together suggest that she at least intended to go out on a date/job interview/meeting someone important...

But I agree that circumstances can and do change


RD

[c.d.]

What there is not is street traffic, the lifeblood of a street walker. She in nice clothing, mints at the ready... men there awake and socializing, lack of potential clients for a street walker, and at that time...to late to go drinking..unless at a semi-private club. These things add up.

I would argue that the lifeblood of a street walker is "men" no matter where they are found. And what was the club full of? Men. And young men to boot.

I am not saying Stride had to be soliciting but it makes sense for a prostitute to make herself as attractive as possible unless there existed a sub class of potential clients who were somehow attracted to shabby clothing and bad breath.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

She was dressed to impress - relative to her regular attire that would be worn for soliciting.

Hello R.D.,

What is soliciting attire and how does it differ from being "dressed to impress?"

As far as Stride being on a date, what if she was dressed for a date and her date did not show up? What if her date got sick or they had an argument? Now she is by herself, her financial situation a lot worse since leaving Kidney and apparently she has a drinking problem. What if Jack approaches her believing she is soliciting? Can we guarantee with absolute certainty what her response would be?

The whole moral of the story is don't put too much weight on the fact that she might have gone out that evening dressed up for a date. Circumstances can change.

c.d.

What we are trying to establish is why she is there at all cd, thats not the same as who killed her. Sure the 2 factors might interact, and as you say her intended plans might be changed based on the events of that evening. Its the 30,000 ft view cd, not the up close and personal. From that adjusted perspective it seems that she dressed according to her plans, and her plans involved being at that address at the time she is there. There are people there. Quite a few actually. And men coming back after leaving earlier. It seems only logical to presume that whom she is meeting is there, or in the process of returning there. That doesnt eliminate a cleaning job either. In fact we have precedents for her cleaning work for Jewish people the weeks leading up to that night. Steady work apparently. She also made 6d that day and we dont know where that went, only that it didnt get converted to booze. I suspect the mints and the flower arrangement took care of that 6d anyway. Question.....when would a woman buy herself a flower arrangement for her jacket? Why would she be carrying breath fresheners if intent on servicing poor immigrant men on the street? Rhetorically, she wants to be attractive. Respectable.

What there is not is street traffic, the lifeblood of a street walker. She in nice clothing, mints at the ready... men there awake and socializing, lack of potential clients for a street walker, and at that time...to late to go drinking..unless at a semi-private club. These things add up.

And Ill add that the real moral of the bigger story here is that its unwise to just assume someone in the Canonical Group must have been killed by Jack. Particularly when they are killed unlike any other alleged victim of his.

[c.d.]

She was dressed to impress - relative to her regular attire that would be worn for soliciting.

Hello R.D.,

What is soliciting attire and how does it differ from being "dressed to impress?"

As far as Stride being on a date, what if she was dressed for a date and her date did not show up? What if her date got sick or they had an argument? Now she is by herself, her financial situation a lot worse since leaving Kidney and apparently she has a drinking problem. What if Jack approaches her believing she is soliciting? Can we guarantee with absolute certainty what her response would be?

The whole moral of the story is don't put too much weight on the fact that she might have gone out that evening dressed up for a date. Circumstances can change.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi RD,

I think it's possible that Stride was there because of someone in the club, but that there are other possibilities. One is that Schwartz' story is totally invented. Another is that it's mostly true, but the picture he gave us of Stride waiting at the arch isn't quite right. After all, Schwartz said that he was following the man who threw her down, so he may have been far enough back and/or his view obstructed by BS man that he didn't get a good look at what she was doing before the assault.

I also think that she may have been waiting for someone that was in the loo, not necessarily a club member, or that she had been on the other side of the arch until BS man approached.

There are some that will say that it's a near certainty that the woman that said "no, not tonight" wasn't Stride. I wouldn't, but I would agree that it's far from certain that it was Stride.

Youre a hedge my bets kind of fellow Lewis. Willing to look at a myriad of scenarios. I believe that some of the evidence is suggestive of some storyline, and is in certain cases a puzzle piece. The thing about puzzles is that the pieces only make the picture when all the pieces fit perfectly.

[Lewis C]

This thread has highlighted something rather important and which we all seem to agree on one way or another; that Stride was there in the yard because of someone in the club.
Whether she was waiting for someone in the club, or for someone to come BACK out of the club, the point is that she was there because of a man connected to the club.
When you combine the eye witness evidence of events leading up to her death, the following would seem to fit...

She had been seen publicly embracing a man outside the Bricklayers Arms

She was dressed to impress - relative to her regular attire that would be worn for soliciting.

She was heard telling someone "No, not tonight" which would imply she wasn't there to pick up business.

When she left the boarding house she spoke like a woman who wasn't planning to go out and solicit that night.

And so why was she there in the yard?

If she wasn't there to solicit, then what other reason would draw her to the club?

Interestingly, the man who she told "No, not tonight" was undoubtedly looking for business...but if she wasn't dressed like an unfortunate that night, then how and why did the man try it on with her?

It eludes to the idea that the man who spoke to her already knew her, or knew she was a prostitute at the very least.

Is there a scenario whereby she hasn't disclosed that she was a prostitute and the man who she has been kissing didn't know, but later found out that by someone telling him, and that made him angry enough to kill her?

Another key point is that IF her killer was anyone associated with the club, then it's unlikely that she was a Ripper victim. That is unless you believe the Ripper was a Jew based at the club.

For Stride to have been a Ripper victim, he would have simply been walking down Berner Street, seen her waiting by the gate, enticed her back and then cut her throat before leaving.

But again, the same problem applies....

If Stride wasn't dressed to solicit, and she had openly told a man "No, not tonight," then how would the Ripper know she was a prostitute? In other words, why would he attack her?

It would then suggest that IF the Ripper killed her; that he already knew her, or knew she was a prostitute despite her not touting for business.

The man she rejected and told "no, not tonight" must have known she was already a prostitute and so it would seem that IF she was a Ripper victim, that the man who she rejected is most likely her killer, ergo, he was the Ripper.

When we look at all the evidence available to us, it would seem more likely that Stride had he throat cut by someone associated with the club, or the Ripper in passing who knew she was a prostitute despite her attempts to conceal the fact that night.


RD

Hi RD,

I think it's possible that Stride was there because of someone in the club, but that there are other possibilities. One is that Schwartz' story is totally invented. Another is that it's mostly true, but the picture he gave us of Stride waiting at the arch isn't quite right. After all, Schwartz said that he was following the man who threw her down, so he may have been far enough back and/or his view obstructed by BS man that he didn't get a good look at what she was doing before the assault.

I also think that she may have been waiting for someone that was in the loo, not necessarily a club member, or that she had been on the other side of the arch until BS man approached.

There are some that will say that it's a near certainty that the woman that said "no, not tonight" wasn't Stride. I wouldn't, but I would agree that it's far from certain that it was Stride.

[Michael W Richards]

If Stride wasn't dressed to solicit, and she had openly told a man "No, not tonight," then how would the Ripper know she was a prostitute? In other words, why would he attack her?

How did prostitutes in 1888 Whitechapel dress to signal they were soliciting?

How would the Ripper know she was soliciting? Most likely by approaching her and asking her.

c.d.

How would anyone know whether she was soliciting cd? This person does not have to be THE Ripper as you know. But he might have been a hopeful client, and maybe one that gets dismissed rudely and doesnt take to that kind of treatment...particularly if he thinks, as Caz suggested in her post, that she was being approached by other men that night and she wasnt rude to them. Of course, if its BSM who gets turned down, then we have a drunk thug rejected by what he believes is some common tramp. Fodder for violence in that scenario for sure.

[Michael W Richards]

In the 1970s, the Yorkshire Ripper targeted women who were not prostitutes on the flimsy grounds that they were out alone at night, or wearing a short skirt, and were therefore no better than they should be.

Back in 1888, it would not have been considered 'respectable' for any woman out at night to be seen kissing or cuddling a man - unless they were clearly a couple, and even then many would have disapproved of any public displays of affection.

If Stride's killer - Ripper or not - had kept a disapproving eye on her public behaviour earlier that night, he might have acted out of self-righteous anger, or possibly jealousy if he saw her canoodling with another man but she then rebuffed his own advances. Whatever set him off, he'd have used it to justify his actions to himself and to blame his victim, and anyone else who threatened to come between them. I have never seen any need to call upon someone who knew Stride personally, or had seen her before that night, to stand in the killer's shoes. They would fit any evil swine with a criminal sense of entitlement.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caz,

I underlined the above sections because I think, in the first underlined sentence, that we really dont know for sure where Kidney was that night...so jealousy might be on the table there for sure. In the second underlined section I would agree that there is no "need to call upon someone" who knew Liz, but the evidence such as it is does not preclude the possibility that she is there to meet someone she does know. Or know of. I think its possible that she might have been there hired to clean, that doesnt mean definitively that she knew anyone there beforehand, but it might mean someone there had recommended her. In the case of a date, it seems logical that IF she is there for that reason, she knew the person beforehand. None of this is to suggest it would be either of those parties that in fact killed her, its to try and establish why she is there at all.

I will add that we know of someone who shows up at those gates at a time when Liz should have still been in that immediate area. And he goes into the club...perhaps to collect his pay for the night, and while inside hears that a woman has been found with a cut throat....where he left her. Does he then come forward with that tale to the police? In this case, he says he saw nothing there when he arrived. Was that the truth? Up to you on that, but Im on the fence. I believe she intended to be right where she was at the time she was seen there...why.....thats what we are trying to suss out.

[c.d.]

If Stride wasn't dressed to solicit, and she had openly told a man "No, not tonight," then how would the Ripper know she was a prostitute? In other words, why would he attack her?

How did prostitutes in 1888 Whitechapel dress to signal they were soliciting?

How would the Ripper know she was soliciting? Most likely by approaching her and asking her.

c.d.

[caz]

If Stride wasn't dressed to solicit, and she had openly told a man "No, not tonight," then how would the Ripper know she was a prostitute? In other words, why would he attack her?

It would then suggest that IF the Ripper killed her; that he already knew her, or knew she was a prostitute despite her not touting for business.

In the 1970s, the Yorkshire Ripper targeted women who were not prostitutes on the flimsy grounds that they were out alone at night, or wearing a short skirt, and were therefore no better than they should be.

Back in 1888, it would not have been considered 'respectable' for any woman out at night to be seen kissing or cuddling a man - unless they were clearly a couple, and even then many would have disapproved of any public displays of affection.

If Stride's killer - Ripper or not - had kept a disapproving eye on her public behaviour earlier that night, he might have acted out of self-righteous anger, or possibly jealousy if he saw her canoodling with another man but she then rebuffed his own advances. Whatever set him off, he'd have used it to justify his actions to himself and to blame his victim, and anyone else who threatened to come between them. I have never seen any need to call upon someone who knew Stride personally, or had seen her before that night, to stand in the killer's shoes. They would fit any evil swine with a criminal sense of entitlement.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Alternatively, she could have been waiting for someone, with whom she had spent the evening, to return from the loo or the Club premises.

Cheers, George

We have sightings of her earlier in the evening but not ones that have her with the same man. But I would think that I would be covered under "meet someone", albeit loose coverage, because if she is waiting for someone who left her company, its not really "meet" is it? Re-meet?

I believe that discovering a sound reason for her being there and being dressed as she was might lead to some other good questions and directions. And I dont believe that her general decorum....nicely dressed, flower arrangement, sober, breath fresheners....were commonly seen among the women walking the late night streets.

I admit to having suspicions here about someone in particular based on little more than some circumstantial tidbits, but in general, Ill stick with Work or Date.