A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[Michael W Richards]

Since you sarcastically asked.

Yes, I was sarcastic and it was not needed. Since I don't like it when other do it I should not have engaged in it. Apologies.

c.d.

Its all good cd,...... over the years you and I have butted heads for sure but youve never come across as rude or ignorant. I cannot say the same for myself sadly, and I will say when provoked rudely I can get....well, you know.

But my take on this is as I posted, I do think that a few of the members were privy to a discussion about what should be said and what should be done before anyone went for help. And I do think those discussions included Louis, and that they took place around 15 minutes before he says he arrived.

[c.d.]

Since you sarcastically asked.

Yes, I was sarcastic and it was not needed. Since I don't like it when other do it I should not have engaged in it. Apologies.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I'm sure it won't surprise you but I agree with Caz on this. It seems a very natural reaction to me. Would you expect them to somehow qualify their statement by saying "another murder has been committed although we can't automatically attribute it to the Whitechapel murderer as murders in London are fairly common and often a knife to the throat is involved." Seriously?

When you also consider that when the men went for help they were yelling "another murder" has been committed..the inference is clearly that they initially sought to blame the unknown killer at large.

I simply can't get over how fiendishly clever these club members were. Such incredible attention to detail when weaving their web of deceit. Do you think they huddled up first before they yelled to make sure everyone was on the same page?

c.d.

Say it aint so cd....actually if you did agree with me Id assume you were someone other than cd using his access.

Since you sarcastically asked...I think that a small number of them quickly discussed how to handle this discovery so they didnt appear to A) not have responded quicklyu to get the authorities, and thanks to Israel, and B) that the likely killer came from off that property. Hence, all the "saw nothings" we get. Lave, Eagle, Wess,...no-one saw anything...although both Wess and Eagle intimated they "couldnt be sure" a body was there when they looked at the area she was found in.

I assumed you would have checked to see how many murders that year were by knife, and how many that included mutilations. Its not a contest. What folks like yourself like to do is to qualify those total stats by using ONLY Unsolved Murders of Street women, which still leaves you with "simple" knife use to compare with more sophisticated usage. Im not sure why you would want to debate the simple fact that Liz Stride is just murdered by "simple" knife usage, and that doesnt fit at all with the much smaller group that reveals sophisticated knife use.

Ive said this before...but anyone could have killed Liz, but her killer was not a Unicorn among horses. Annies killer was.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Goldstein had a full bag of cigarette cartons as a matter of fact, and statements made by some residents in the passageway cottages said they were cigarette makers and still awake at the time the body was discovered. Was Goldstein intending to turn into that yard, and dissuaded by something?

Were the contents of the bag were independently verified, on the night of the murder?

I see no reason to suppose that Goldstein would have been turned away from the yard. He was a member of the club. So, as for his timing, the scenario in #415 would have Diemschitz discovering the body shortly before 12:50. Shortly before that, Fanny Mortimer had locked up for the night, which was shortly after seeing the man with the black bag. Therefore, she sees Goldstein right around the time you suppose the murder occurred, and also very close to the time given by Schwartz. So, why doesn't she see Schwartz?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I believe that the murder likely happened very shortly after Smith saw Liz with parcel man, slightly before 12:45. Blackwells estimate of the earliest cut time was 12:46, maybe he was slightly off. Phillips at 1:30 said within the hour. Wiggle room.

Slightly before 12:45 immediately reminds me of this...

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so.

The notion of Stride standing across the street talking with Parcelman, and then almost immediately afterward standing alone in the gateway to the yard, is a transition I find very jarring. How do you suggest smoothing it out?

Kozebrodski to a reporter: About 20 minutes to 1 this morning Mr Diemshitz called me out into the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a large pool of blood. It was running down the gutter, and in the direction of the gate, and reached about to the door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards.

Let's give the blood at least 5 minutes to flow down to the side door of the club. Had the murder occurred just before 12:45, the time is now about 12:50. Allowing for a bit of wiggle room, we should therefore expect Edward Spooner to see the two men running for police from between about 12:48 to 12:58.

Spooner: Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. ... After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police."

12:30 + 00:25 = 12:55

Spooner: I stood there about five minutes before a constable came.

12:55 + 00:05 = 01:00

Lamb: About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder."

Bingo?

[Michael W Richards]

Goldstein had a full bag of cigarette cartons as a matter of fact, and statements made by some residents in the passageway cottages said they were cigarette makers and still awake at the time the body was discovered. Was Goldstein intending to turn into that yard, and dissuaded by something?

[Michael W Richards]

In the spirit of positivity, would you mind answering my question regarding the time of the murder?

I believe that the murder likely happened very shortly after Smith saw Liz with parcel man, slightly before 12:45. Blackwells estimate of the earliest cut time was 12:46, maybe he was slightly off. Phillips at 1:30 said within the hour. Wiggle room.

Ive supported questioning the statements of the men paid by the club, I think they had reasons to ensure they looked clean on this, but Im also starting to feel that maybe Louis wasnt the first to discover the body. Or that he arrived around the time Liz is actually being killed.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Goldstein said he had just come from a coffee house in Spectacle Alley and his bag contained empty cigarette boxes. You don't think the police would have checked with the coffee house to confirm his account? Whoever cut Stride's throat did it without an audience. Is it really any wonder that nobody saw what was happening until it had happened and the killer was gone?

Who do you suppose the police would have spoken to at the "coffee house"?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I though Id sent a positive message, but by the general tone above, not received as such or as inconsequential I gather. As for Stride, the point isnt as obscure as your making it....Stride was almost certainly not killed by a serial mutilator so she deserves to be left in peace. Some Canonicals were killed by this legendary killer, and that link makes scrutinizing the womens histories, habits, social lives, more acceptable. When people study the Ripper, they are introduced to a group of Five women out of 13 in the Unsolved Murders file that most believe were killed by Jack. Well, on the surface it appears Liz wasnt Ripped...so technically we have no business digging into her life like squirrels trying to find nuts.

I just think that if my relative was Liz Stride I would be unhappy about people looking into her life and making judgements about her. She wasnt ripped....clearly....so it would be nice to leave her out of the merry go-round that is Ripperology.

Goldstein is interesting because he walked past the gates at a time when Liz and probably her killer were just inside. Its at a time when at least 3 witnesses, corroborated by the times given by Lamb, Johnson and Blackwell, say they were around the body with Louis. So its interesting given that dynamic that he says he saw nothing. Like Eagle. And Lave. Seems like a mini pandemic of temporary blindness.

In the spirit of positivity, would you mind answering my question regarding the time of the murder?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Back to Goldstein? Or should he now be left in peace?

No.

Here's one for you Caz.

Irish Times: The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.

Given this and the timings of PC Smith, that is, of the police, a realistic time for Diemschitz arrival would be 12:55 or even earlier. We have a report that suggests Mortimer locked up a few minutes prior to this, and it is commonly believed she saw a man with a black bag walking south on Berner St, shortly before she locked up. About what time would shortly before a few minutes before 12:55 be? Whatever the exact time, we are now getting perilously close to 12:45.

Mortimer saw Goldstein, but she apparently did not see Schwartz, in spite of the screams and shouts and theatrics occurring - at most a few minutes offset in time. Why not? An even more pertinent question would apply to those who suppose JtR came along a few minutes after the BS man incident. To spell it out, we would then be comparing;

shortly before a few minutes before 12:55
with
a few minutes after 12:45

For all intents and purposes, the same time. That is one reason why I believe the true identity of Israel Schwarz can be seen in #405.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I'm sure it won't surprise you but I agree with Caz on this. It seems a very natural reaction to me. Would you expect them to somehow qualify their statement by saying "another murder has been committed although we can't automatically attribute it to the Whitechapel murderer as murders in London are fairly common and often a knife to the throat is involved." Seriously?

When you also consider that when the men went for help they were yelling "another murder" has been committed..the inference is clearly that they initially sought to blame the unknown killer at large.

I simply can't get over how fiendishly clever these club members were. Such incredible attention to detail when weaving their web of deceit. Do you think they huddled up first before they yelled to make sure everyone was on the same page?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello again,

Just the one observation here, Michael...

Your use of the phrase 'sought to blame' in this context is a loaded one, and IMHO entirely unwarranted. A far more natural reaction by anyone at or near the scene of Stride's murder would have been to assume this was the work of the same man who had, over recent weeks, already knifed to death at least two, if not three randomly selected females, all found murdered just beyond the walls of occupied premises. They could not possibly have known otherwise, and even if they suspected an individual club attendee, he could still have been the wanted killer - however unlikely it was that he would have done it this time so close to 'home', as it were.

For the same reason, I would find it almost as unlikely for a club attendee to have committed brutal murder on the premises, immediately attracting police attention to himself and his fellow attendees.

Sorry, Michael, but it doesn't work for me. Whether Stride was "another" victim of the same man or not, I just don't see anyone closely associated with that location killing her there and getting away with it.

Love,

Caz
X

I would think immediately associating this new murder with the last assumed Ripper kill, Annie Chapmans, is something that brings to mind the apples and oranges analogy. Both fruit, but completely different. Far more knife attacks happened in that city than ones that included abdominal mutilations, and in fact a third one happened on that same night. Not unsolved, and a domestic murder, but that doesnt alter the fact that 3 women that night had their throats slit.... with knives. Something Im sure you have done at one point or another is to look at ALL the murders that year in London. I believe just over 50 some odd. Not just Unsolved, and not just within a square mile of each other, but all of them. Note how many were committed with knives or other implements vs how many involved knives used for organ extractions. Its not a fair contest. Knives were by far the most commonly used weapon, and organ extractions as part of a murder were exceedingly rare. Liz Strides death by definition was within that first predominant grouping. Annies decidely wasnt. To immediately claim that "another murder" has happened, based on the fact that the only murderer on peoples minds at that time was the serial mutilator, is effectively intentional misdirection.

If youd noted, I suggested that the man came from that property....substantiated by the fact that the ONLY men known to be near that kill site at that time were the men still in attendance at that club. I dont believe he had to be a member, and in fact if we accept portions of what Israel said he saw, he may well have been an antisemitic gentile. The evidence suggests that no other men were anywhere close to those gates, and multiple witnesses said the street was deserted that last 25 minutes, other than Goldsteins pass by seen by Fanny. You may find it "unlikely" a club attendee committed this murder, but the fact remains that they were the only people who could have done it and not be seen from the street.

Your resistance is based on your hunches. The question of who could have done it needs no hunch to figure out. He was almost certainly from that property.

Dont apologize for not seeing the logic and reason I suggest, instead try and use those filters instead of using hunches. My suggested scenario utilizes the knowns and some basic logic for 40 Berner St, and uses that to assist in deciphering the message within the message at Goulston. I only wish when others put their theories out, they walk through it all to see if it fits the knowns. Most dont. Mine does.

[caz]

I though Id sent a positive message, but by the general tone above, not received as such or as inconsequential I gather. As for Stride, the point isnt as obscure as your making it....Stride was almost certainly not killed by a serial mutilator so she deserves to be left in peace.

This is getting us nowhere, because I could say just as easily that Stride 'almost certainly' was killed by the murderer at large at the time. All the victims deserve to rest in peace, but their murders all remain unsolved, so there was never any closure for their friends and relatives.

Some Canonicals were killed by this legendary killer, and that link makes scrutinizing the womens histories, habits, social lives, more acceptable. When people study the Ripper, they are introduced to a group of Five women out of 13 in the Unsolved Murders file that most believe were killed by Jack. Well, on the surface it appears Liz wasnt Ripped...so technically we have no business digging into her life like squirrels trying to find nuts.

Sorry, Michael, I can't even begin to comprehend the above analogy or the distinction you make here for Stride. You seem to think it's your business to dig into the lives of Nichols and Chapman because they fell victim to 'this legendary killer', but it's none of anyone's business to dig into the lives of the other victims, just because you have doubts about who murdered them. I find that utterly bizarre.

I just think that if my relative was Liz Stride I would be unhappy about people looking into her life and making judgements about her. She wasnt ripped....clearly....so it would be nice to leave her out of the merry go-round that is Ripperology.

What 'judgements'? She didn't deserve to have her throat cut, any more than the other victims deserved to be mutilated. Who has suggested otherwise?

Goldstein is interesting because he walked past the gates at a time when Liz and probably her killer were just inside. Its at a time when at least 3 witnesses, corroborated by the times given by Lamb, Johnson and Blackwell, say they were around the body with Louis. So its interesting given that dynamic that he says he saw nothing. Like Eagle. And Lave. Seems like a mini pandemic of temporary blindness.

Goldstein said he had just come from a coffee house in Spectacle Alley and his bag contained empty cigarette boxes. You don't think the police would have checked with the coffee house to confirm his account? Whoever cut Stride's throat did it without an audience. Is it really any wonder that nobody saw what was happening until it had happened and the killer was gone?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

When you also consider that when the men went for help they were yelling "another murder" has been committed..the inference is clearly that they initially sought to blame the unknown killer at large. So, at that point in time...it could be construed that the Jews were seeking to blame others, when the evidence is fairly clear that ONLY the club attendees were in that immediate area at that time.

Just the one observation here, Michael...

Your use of the phrase 'sought to blame' in this context is a loaded one, and IMHO entirely unwarranted. A far more natural reaction by anyone at or near the scene of Stride's murder would have been to assume this was the work of the same man who had, over recent weeks, already knifed to death at least two, if not three randomly selected females, all found murdered just beyond the walls of occupied premises. They could not possibly have known otherwise, and even if they suspected an individual club attendee, he could still have been the wanted killer - however unlikely it was that he would have done it this time so close to 'home', as it were.

For the same reason, I would find it almost as unlikely for a club attendee to have committed brutal murder on the premises, immediately attracting police attention to himself and his fellow attendees.

Sorry, Michael, but it doesn't work for me. Whether Stride was "another" victim of the same man or not, I just don't see anyone closely associated with that location killing her there and getting away with it.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Back to Goldstein? Or should he now be left in peace?

More research should be done on him.
Did Chris Scott uncover the correct census listing?...

Leon Goldstein

Lloyds Weekly
7 October 1888

Reports have been ciculated this week of a man having been seen in the streets with a black bag abou the time of the murders; but suspicion was removed by a young traveller named Goldstein coming forward and stating that he was in Berner Street.


The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.

The only census listing I can find of a man of the right trade is in 1891:
55 Marine Parade, Minster, Sheppey, Kent
Head: Joseph Phibey aged 51 born Chatham - Blacksmith
Wife: Annie Phibey aged 50 born Commercial Road, London
Children:
Harry aged 16 - Printer
Gertrude aged 12
Florence aged 6
Married daughter:
Amelia Millmott aged 24
All children born in Sheerness
Visitor:
Leon Goldstein aged 25 (Unmarried) born Russia - Cigarette maker