Suspect League table

[DJA]

That's a great shout Michael, i will look into this suspect you put forward.

TRD

American fiction.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, do you want me to put Feigenbaum as your only suspect?


Happy to do sir


TRD

As far as those who fall into the "real suspect" status he has to be top of the list

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

Do you want Vasiliev as your only suspect or do you have a top 4?



Many thanks

TRD

Im not a subscriber to Canonical monthly, so I dont have 4 choices for one killer. I have what I believe might be 4 killers in those 5 murders. Isenschmidt for perhaps the first 2, an unknown unimportant man for the 3rd, someone being blackmailed for the 4th, and possibly the other Joe for the final of the Five. I dont see any reason to suggest killer MO changes when other likely scenarios exist. The serial killer of that period is a real rarity, not so today sadly, but back then they were very few and very far between. Not only do we have a series of unsolved street attacks, we also have a series of Torsos...going back almost a decade.

Vasiliev is for me just a possible wildcard, and there are clearly other Unsolved Street women Murders of that 1888-89 timeframe.

It does trouble me that there is a great deal of similarity with C1, C2 and C4, so Im not really committed to Isenschmidt as a result. Its possible the same fellow did 1,2, and 4, and Mr I couldnt have done 4.

[The Rookie Detective]

Im not a subscriber to Canonical monthly, so I dont have 4 choices for one killer. I have what I believe might be 4 killers in those 5 murders. Isenschmidt for perhaps the first 2, an unknown unimportant man for the 3rd, someone being blackmailed for the 4th, and possibly the other Joe for the final of the Five. I dont see any reason to suggest killer MO changes when other likely scenarios exist. The serial killer of that period is a real rarity, not so today sadly, but back then they were very few and very far between. Not only do we have a series of unsolved street attacks, we also have a series of Torsos...going back almost a decade.

Vasiliev is for me just a possible wildcard, and there are clearly other Unsolved Street women Murders of that 1888-89 timeframe.

It does trouble me that there is a great deal of similarity with C1, C2 and C4, so Im not really committed to Isenschmidt as a result. Its possible the same fellow did 1,2, and 4, and Mr I couldnt have done 4.

brilliant post Michael and I can understand the angle from which you’re coming from.

the suspect league I initiated wasn’t specifically for the generic canonical 5 or any particular number of victims. It was specifically to ask who people thought the ripper to be.


so it’s not the number of victims or even the number of potential killers, but the man who was the ripper.

You have 4 killers for the generic 5 and so your choices are equally as valid in terms of the league.

based on your answers you essentially mentioned an unknown man for all, in particular the 4th, 5th and for the 3rd, and so because the jury is out on Stride being a “ripper” victim, I will add an “unknown” to the league as your main answer.
based on your answer for 1 and 2, I will add the man you specifically named for those 2 murders, Isenschmidt as your 2nd choice and Vasiiev as your 3rd choice.

this is purely in terms of points, in order to be able to add your answers to the league so that your contribution is included.

it was my fault initially for requesting a top 4, as I should have specified I was NOT referring to the canonical 5, but specifically the top 4 suspects for who people believed to be the ripper, or in your case rippers.

the truth is that the number of victims is uncertain AND the number of killers is also uncertain.
for the sake of the data being included I will add “unknown” “Isenschmidt” and “Vasiliev” in that order.

if you don’t agree then I am more than happy to alter accordingly based on your instruction.


as an aside, I believe that the torso murders are essential to consider and I firmly believe that there were more ripper victims than just the canonical 5.
i believe it’s better to have consideration for more victims than disregard them because of change of MO.

I concur with you completely in that respect.


TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

As far as those who fall into the "real suspect" status he has to be top of the list

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

More than happy to include him into the league.

updating it as we speak


many thanks

TRD

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I'd go along with Michael on the Issenscmidt front, he's a great candidate for two. I'd have him as my preferred suspect if he wasn't doing a stretch for Kat and Mary.

I didn't mention Blotchy, but he's also a good candidate, in a world of vague descriptions, the ginger ruddy chap shows up at earlier non fatal crimes. Good candidate.

[Joshua Rogan]

I'd go along with Michael on the Issenscmidt front, he's a great candidate for two. I'd have him as my preferred suspect if he wasn't doing a stretch for Kat and Mary.

Do you believe the press report that has Isenschmidt being given an alibi for Annie's murdrer?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Do you believe the press report that has Isenschmidt being given an alibi for Annie's murdrer?

Cripes A'mighty, you've got it in for me.

Is there anyone, at all, who isn't contradicted by press reports, statements, cricket match timetables, being in clink, not being in the country and many other factors? It's showing a preference, in a particular circumstance, for a plausible candidate. That's not concrete proof. Issenschmidt is a good candidate, in a poor pool of candidates. They've all got something against them. The OP wasn't about facts. It was about the opinions regardless of fact. An opinion poll of ripperologists. I put 'unknown local' as my first choice, for the reason that I think that's the most likely solution. I wouldn't debate the the subject if I thought that was the sole solution.

[Joshua Rogan]

Cripes A'mighty, you've got it in for me.

That's just your opinion. Which is wrong, of course.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

That's just your opinion. Which is wrong, of course.

Fair do's. Well call it even at that.

[OneRound]

Yeah, just starting to think this wasn't the best idea ha ha!


It's great that most have put forward some good suspects and a shame that some have just mocked it, but i can understand that so i never takes things personally.


I was going to start with the JFK shooting but i already have George Hickey responsible for that, so i opted for the ripper case instead ha ha


TRD

Hi again Rookie,

Certainly no mocking from me. I see it as a welcome step in pooling and comparing opinions. The only reason I haven't voted is that I don't know nearly enough about the murders committed by or attributed to the Ripper. I tend to concentrate on the supporting cast threads on this site - the likes of Hanratty, Wallace, Bamber and Christie.

In reading today about Peter Sutcliffe's death and the many police mistakes in their investigations into his crimes, I was intrigued to learn that at the time of his final murder the police had a league table of suspects. According to the London Evening Standard:
''There were 26 in Division One - at the top was a completely innocent taxi driver who they tailed for months.
Some 200 names were in Division Two and 1,000 - including Sutcliffe - were in Division Three.''

I hope your voters get closer to the true target!

Best regards,
OneRound

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi again Rookie,

Certainly no mocking from me. I see it as a welcome step in pooling and comparing opinions. The only reason I haven't voted is that I don't know nearly enough about the murders committed by or attributed to the Ripper. I tend to concentrate on the supporting cast threads on this site - the likes of Hanratty, Wallace, Bamber and Christie.

In reading today about Peter Sutcliffe's death and the many police mistakes in their investigations into his crimes, I was intrigued to learn that at the time of his final murder the police had a league table of suspects. According to the London Evening Standard:
''There were 26 in Division One - at the top was a completely innocent taxi driver who they tailed for months.
Some 200 names were in Division Two and 1,000 - including Sutcliffe - were in Division Three.''

I hope your voters get closer to the true target!

Best regards,
OneRound

A brilliant post and highlights that sometimes the truth can be found in the unlikeliest of places.

Regarding the Sutcliffe case; the police were responsible for prolonging his killing spree by not being open minded, or rather, shallow minded.
it makes me wonder whether the police at the time of the Jack the ripper case were of similar mindsets and perhaps goes some way to explain why the real killer went under the radar and was never caught.


TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

Good day to you all



So i have attempted to update the Suspect League table according to all of your amazing input.


As i'm sure you can appreciate, it has been rather tricky trying to collate an accurate picture of realistic viewpoints based on your suggestions.

For example, where some of you have submitted a top 4, i have been able to input that data directly into the structure of the league accordingly. For those who gave 1 answer and stated it was their ONLY suspect, i have again input this data into the league. (DJA with Sutton & Trevor with Feigenbaum) Clearly, DJA and Trevor have submitted their first and only choice.

Where there has been 1 name put forward but it's also been stated that the name isn't their 1st choice suspect i.e. merely a suggestion to add to the league or "wildcard", i have had to adapt accordingly in order to ensure that those suggestions are represented as equally as possible in relation to other suspect.

for example, Vasiliev, Issenschmidt and Morgenstern were put forward as suggestions but NOT as the first & only choice of suspect, and so i have chosen to allocate a generic 5 points to each of those. This means they don't score the full 10 points as they weren't declared as the persons 1st choice but still receive the equivalent of 2nd place 5 points.


Scott also mentioned Henry Defries, but due to my previous message asking for sincerity in submissions of suspects being pasted at the start of Scott's message, i am not convinced that Defries is a sincere answer. However, i will give Scott the benefit of the doubt and so i have given Defries 5 points as an additonal suggestion based on the points rules i have mentioned in the previous paragraph. If if later turns out that Defries was a sincere answer and Scott's genuine only choice of suspect, then i will amend the points and allocate Defries the full 10 points. Likewise, if Defries is instead a "joke" submission, then i will omit Defries from the table.

My apologies to Scott if Defries is a genuine answer.


For the submission which included the 4 joke answers, i have already omitted that from the league.


Once again, i am happy to add any suspects put forward, but please be sincere with your answers. Otherwise, it's all a waste of time and effort on my part to try and collate some of our collective suspect contributions.

Suspects like Maybrick and Feigenbaum may be controversial, but at least the people who submitted them genuinely believe they were the ripper and so therefore, they are rightfully included because the submission was a sincere one.


In other words, thank you to those who are making sincere suggestions about whom they truly believe to be either ripper or viable candidates who genuinely make their top 4.


Thank you also to those who took the time to submit either their top 4 as requested, their solo suspect or proper wildcard suggestions and also t Michael who stated he has multiple killers for the ripper.

All equally valid suggestions as they were all SINCERE answers.


I truly believe that if we all were to honestly submit our top 4/top/wildcard suspects, then we may achieve more collectively over time.

I have already read posts on this thread where someone has suggested a name they genuinely believe deserves to be in the mix and it has resulted in new discussions being initiated and brought to others attention.
Surely this is the whole point, as it gets us TALKING ABOUT SUSPECTS.


Id never heard of Vasilev, Morgenstern etc... but at least they have now been brought to my attention to look at further. It may come to nothing, but you never know where the truth may lie in this case.


Thank you all once again for your sincerity in trying to make this thread work as a collective


League update to follow shortly



TRD

[MrBarnett]

Good day to you all



So i have attempted to update the Suspect League table according to all of your amazing input.


As i'm sure you can appreciate, it has been rather tricky trying to collate an accurate picture of realistic viewpoints based on your suggestions.

For example, where some of you have submitted a top 4, i have been able to input that data directly into the structure of the league accordingly. For those who gave 1 answer and stated it was their ONLY suspect, i have again input this data into the league. (DJA with Sutton & Trevor with Feigenbaum) Clearly, DJA and Trevor have submitted their first and only choice.

Where there has been 1 name put forward but it's also been stated that the name isn't their 1st choice suspect i.e. merely a suggestion to add to the league or "wildcard", i have had to adapt accordingly in order to ensure that those suggestions are represented as equally as possible in relation to other suspect.

for example, Vasiliev, Issenschmidt and Morgenstern were put forward as suggestions but NOT as the first & only choice of suspect, and so i have chosen to allocate a generic 5 points to each of those. This means they don't score the full 10 points as they weren't declared as the persons 1st choice but still receive the equivalent of 2nd place 5 points.


Scott also mentioned Henry Defries, but due to my previous message asking for sincerity in submissions of suspects being pasted at the start of Scott's message, i am not convinced that Defries is a sincere answer. However, i will give Scott the benefit of the doubt and so i have given Defries 5 points as an additonal suggestion based on the points rules i have mentioned in the previous paragraph. If if later turns out that Defries was a sincere answer and Scott's genuine only choice of suspect, then i will amend the points and allocate Defries the full 10 points. Likewise, if Defries is instead a "joke" submission, then i will omit Defries from the table.

My apologies to Scott if Defries is a genuine answer.


For the submission which included the 4 joke answers, i have already omitted that from the league.


Once again, i am happy to add any suspects put forward, but please be sincere with your answers. Otherwise, it's all a waste of time and effort on my part to try and collate some of our collective suspect contributions.

Suspects like Maybrick and Feigenbaum may be controversial, but at least the people who submitted them genuinely believe they were the ripper and so therefore, they are rightfully included because the submission was a sincere one.


In other words, thank you to those who are making sincere suggestions about whom they truly believe to be either ripper or viable candidates who genuinely make their top 4.


Thank you also to those who took the time to submit either their top 4 as requested, their solo suspect or proper wildcard suggestions and also t Michael who stated he has multiple killers for the ripper.

All equally valid suggestions as they were all SINCERE answers.


I truly believe that if we all were to honestly submit our top 4/top/wildcard suspects, then we may achieve more collectively over time.

I have already read posts on this thread where someone has suggested a name they genuinely believe deserves to be in the mix and it has resulted in new discussions being initiated and brought to others attention.
Surely this is the whole point, as it gets us TALKING ABOUT SUSPECTS.


Id never heard of Vasilev, Morgenstern etc... but at least they have now been brought to my attention to look at further. It may come to nothing, but you never know where the truth may lie in this case.


Thank you all one again for your sincerity in trying to make this thread work as a collective


League update to follow shortly



TRD

Morgenstern may be known to you by the name ‘Morganstone’. He appears to have been MJK’s pimp/landlord while she was living in Pennington Street. He, and several others in the same business, upped sticks and moved to Limehouse within a year or so of Kelly’s murder. That’s where he carried out the vicious attack on the three women who had dissed his Mrs (Mrs ‘Buki’).

[The Rookie Detective]

Morgenstern may be known to you by the name ‘Morganstone’. He appears to have been MJK’s pimp/landlord while she was living in Pennington Street. He, and several others in the same business, upped sticks and moved to Limehouse within a year or so of Kelly’s murder. That’s where he carried out the vicious attack on the three women who had dissed his Mrs (Mrs ‘Buki’).

absolutely brilliant


So you have submitted a suspect which has proven to have been violent towards women and used a knife on multiple occasions, a man who was directly connected to MJK and whose movements are suspicious when you consider the course of events surrounding the slaying of Kelly.

Morgenstern/stone HAS to be considered a suspect.

Whether it comes to nothing is not the point, it's the fact that a brilliant researcher has taken the time and effort to sincerely submit a viable suspect that fully deserves to be in the mix and looked at more closely.

Once a suspect is in the mix, it opens up lots of different research avenues and brings about further discussion and cohesion among us.


And that's the entire point of this thread right there.


TRD