The broken window

[packers stem]

The press were not allowed in the court, so the reporters may have obtained any details from residents after they were allowed out.
There is an account that tells us some reporters managed to get on to the roof to look down in the court at some point.

That said, the only reason I can see for a window being removed, or at least the glass broken out might (might), be to allow the coffin containing the body to be passed out of the room.
The coffin can be brought in upright through the door because it is empty at that point.

The outside wall opposite the side door may have been too near to allow for them carrying it out, with the coffin horizontal and heavy.
That is just a thought mind you, not that I believe the window was removed, I don't, it is just that a reason may be found if we think about it.

Hi Wickerman
What I'm struggling with is the photo itself really.
There's not a soul in sight.
The sharp angle of shadow suggests midday sun in June
In the UK in November, even at midday you'll do well to get the sun at a 45 degree angle off the horizon, this I know as I can only use a washing line between March and September due to some nearby trees lol
Also only one broken pane is visible.... Where there should be 2
I'm not convinced that this photo wasn't taken well after the event,possibly years and that it is still possible that the window had been removed as the report stated

[packers stem]

Phil, unless you can demonstrate that Inspectors Abberline and Beck both knew that the bloodhounds had been removed from London, and that they were aware that any previous orders issued by Sir Charles Warren about the use of bloodhounds had been countermanded, everything you say is no more than piffle and nonsense.

Hi David
I think the problem isn't with Beck or Abberline,the delay seems to be way further up the chain of command.They were only acting on orders.
My question would be what was Arnold doing so important that it took him till 1.30 to drag himself there..
He got to Goulston Street pretty sharpish,as did Warren for that matter...

[Wickerman]

Could be that Arnold saw it as the easiest way of entry due to the door mystery. The times was remarkably accurate regarding the mutilations so there's a good chance they were right about this.
What if the window was removed to get someone in to open the door but it still couldn't be opened.Would make a lot of sense

The press were not allowed in the court, so the reporters may have obtained any details from residents after they were allowed out.
There is an account that tells us some reporters managed to get on to the roof to look down in the court at some point.

That said, the only reason I can see for a window being removed, or at least the glass broken out might (might), be to allow the coffin containing the body to be passed out of the room.
The coffin can be brought in upright through the door because it is empty at that point.

The outside wall opposite the side door may have been too near to allow for them carrying it out, with the coffin horizontal and heavy.
That is just a thought mind you, not that I believe the window was removed, I don't, it is just that a reason may be found if we think about it.

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

Sorry, I did.

My mistake.

That's quite alright Simon, don't mention it.

Glad we've finally sorted this out.

[DJA]

My apology to both of you,as I thought Simon was addressing me.

The D is for David.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Sorry, I did.

My mistake.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

So the fact that Millers Court had been stuffed to the gills with policemen, doctors and residents, and Dorset Street was thronged with rubberneckers, would have had no impact on the efficacy of bloodhounds.

What a strange question. Do you think I am an expert on bloodhounds?

Mr Taunton explained in the Times of 13 November 1888 that he did not think that the bloodhounds would have been of any use in the Kelly case because 'it was then broad daylight and the streets would have been crowded with people.' He also said: 'The only chance the hounds would have would be in the event of a murdered body being discovered, as the others were, in the small hours of the morning, and being put on the trail before many people were about.'

Frankly, what I think about the efficacy of bloodhounds and what Mr Taunton thought about the efficacy of bloodhounds is utterly irrelevant. All that matters is what Inspectors Abberline and Beck thought about the efficacy of bloodhounds and even that is irrelevant if they were under orders not to enter a murder scene until the bloodhounds had arrived and they were expecting the imminent arrival of those bloodhounds.

As to that, I note that you have failed to demonstrate that these officers knew the bloodhounds were not available. It is perfectly obvious that they were waiting for the bloodhounds and that is the answer to the question you posed earlier in this thread.

[DJA]

Fish has a thread on imaginary CCTV cameras.

Might have some video of the bloodhounds

[Simon Wood]

Hi DJA,

You're right.

I should have added, " . . . had they existed."

Thanks.

Regards,

Simon

[DJA]

Are you talking about imaginary bloodhounds!

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

So the fact that Millers Court had been stuffed to the gills with policemen, doctors and residents, and Dorset Street was thronged with rubberneckers, would have had no impact on the efficacy of bloodhounds.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

And I look forward to you explaining why an able bodied policeman.. and there were quite a few of them about..of all ranks and intelligence, practical and otherwise.. together with a whole possee of doctors.. all with intelligent brains, didn't think of putting their arm through the window to unlatch the door that the key was apparently lost for (that apparently wasnt), and the intrepid men were waiting for dogs to turn up that clearly were not in London...and had not been for a fortnight. Strange how communication even puts the balls up over time too isnt it? Afraid to get their arms grazed perhaps?

Two weeks and not a sniff of a woof woof. And NOBODY told ONE particular policeman ..he involved in the Whitechapel murder enquiry. Odd that. Because talk of using dogs would not have crossed his mind before, nor would he ever have heard of the possibility of them being used either.. even though some very famous ones had been known to be most helpful to the police...

Odd that.

But we cant have the Met being seen to be blinking useless now, can we?
Nor doing something naughty either.
Nope. Can't have that. Tut tut.
As white as angels washed in Daz that lot.

Phil, unless you can demonstrate that Inspectors Abberline and Beck both knew that the bloodhounds had been removed from London, and that they were aware that any previous orders issued by Sir Charles Warren about the use of bloodhounds had been countermanded, everything you say is no more than piffle and nonsense.

[DJA]

Where is the evidence that the police were "talking about a lost key" between 11:30am and 1:30pm of 9 November 1888?

This thread is in danger of confusing two separate things: the wait for the bloodhounds and the breaking down of the door.

I thought the thread was about broken windows

[David Orsam]

As does not reaching through the broken window..which they all saw and all knew about, to unlatch the door. Instead.. they pooh pooh around waiting for dogs that aren't there to turn up, and talking about a lost key...which doesnt appear anyway.

Where is the evidence that the police were "talking about a lost key" between 11:30am and 1:30pm of 9 November 1888?

This thread is in danger of confusing two separate things: the wait for the bloodhounds and the breaking down of the door.

It was the wait for the bloodhounds alone that caused a two hour delay. The police did not want to enter the room for fear of putting the bloodhounds off the scent. In this respect, Simon has misrepresented what Mr Taunton told Superintendent Arnold. As reported by the Times of 13 November 1888, Mr Taunton 'pointed out the stupidity of expecting a dog to accomplish anything under the circumstances'. Those 'circumstances' being that: 'The police admitted that since the burglary they had been all over the premises'". He also referred to the length of time that had been allowed to elapse since the crime (i.e. over seven hours). But it was the fact that police having tramped all over the crime scene that meant that bloodhounds would have no chance of picking up the scent.

The fact that the police did not have a key was never given as a reason for the delay. Presumably they were either unaware that the door could be opened through the window or something inside was blocking the door but either way it makes no difference because once they decided to enter they knocked the door down. Thus, no time was lost by their not being able to open the door and it's pointless to conjure up conspiracy theories about it.

[DJA]

Hi David,


Who told Beck that non-existent bloodhounds were on the way?

And who countermanded the order for non-existent bloodhounds to be sent to Millers Court.

Both very good questions.

Suspect Abberline was playing for time.