Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Buck's Row Timings

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Update

    I popped back to check some timings this afternoon as follows:

    Firstly, I wanted to time the very quickest walk between the murder site (or at least as close to it as it is currently possible to get bearing in mind the building work) and Liverpool Street station. Wearing trainers - which might have given me an advantage over Cross & Paul - and walking at the quickest pace I could (short of doing that silly walk that Olympic race walkers do) I did the route in 13:30. To that extent, my previous agreement in #13 that I could not do the walk inside 15 minutes was wrong. I did it!

    Secondly, within that walk - at that speed - I wanted to time the fastest possible walk from the murder site to Corbet's Court (where Paul worked) and which I now assume is at or near the street currently called Corbet Place. That took me 8:01 (the walk between there and Liv St Station took 5:29, hence the 13:30).

    Thirdly, I wanted to do the walk between the murder site and the correct location of 152 Whitechapel Road as it was in 1888 (which is very close to the corner of Brady Street). Doing it at very fast pace, I even shaved a few seconds off my previous walk from the corner of Brady Street and did it in 1:36. Bear in mind that one has to add on about 10-20 seconds to reach the murder site itself. I also did it again at a reasonably slow pace and that took 2:20 so it's almost impossible to do the walk without interruption and take longer than 3 minutes.

    Thirdly, I walked at the fastest possible pace between the murder site and Doveton Street and managed it in a record 5:53. Attempting it again at what I would regard as normal walking pace (a touch slower than my own normal walking pace) it took me 7:35.

    Fourthly, I walked from the murder site to Liverpool Street station at the same sort of normal walking pace and this took 16:36. So adding on about 20 seconds to this, the entire walk from Doveton Street to Liv Street at a normal walking pace would be about twenty-four and a half minutes. From that I can say that had Cross needed to get to Liverpool Street Station he could have left his house at 3:35, walked at a normal pace, and arrived on time. However, he did have to get to Pickfords so that would presumably have added a few minutes to the walk.

    Finally, I wanted to have a look at what Fisherman was talking about when he mentioned a Sainsbury's blocking the route. Although, while walking, one has the impression of taking the fastest possible route between Doveton Street and Buck's Row, looking at an old map I can see that there might have been a quicker route down Buckhurst Street and then Birkbeck Street, both of which no longer exist, and the building which houses Sainsbury's does seem to run along where Birkbeck Street used to be. So, to that extent, the claim in the documentary that, "The street layout is the same as it was over a century ago" may not be entirely accurate. Of course, if Cross could have done the walk to Buck's Row faster, he could have left his home later in order to get him to work on time.

    I think I am done with the walking now.

    Comment


    • #17
      Hello David,

      If you had a big Christmas and feel like walking it off, I'd be interested to know Mizen's ambulance timings. I'm estimating it was an 8 to 10 minute trip each way depending on which route he took.
      Attached Files
      dustymiller
      aka drstrange

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
        Hello David,

        If you had a big Christmas and feel like walking it off, I'd be interested to know Mizen's ambulance timings. I'm estimating it was an 8 to 10 minute trip each way depending on which route he took.
        Where are you indicating in the map that he got the ambulance from?

        Comment


        • #19
          Bethnal Green Police station, J division H.Q. Ainsley Street.
          dustymiller
          aka drstrange

          Comment


          • #20
            Okay, thanks, and why do you think he got it from there?

            Comment


            • #21
              Hello David,

              All the reports say he went to the Bethnal Green police station. Monty will correct me if I'm wrong, but that was not only the main station, it was the nearest. It was where PC Neil was based therefore where he would have logically sent for help. Presumably Sgt Kirby, who was also based there, returned with him.
              dustymiller
              aka drstrange

              Comment


              • #22
                Hi - do you have a reference for a report that he went to Bethnal Green police station? I looked but couldn't find one. I'm just thinking that I don't want to do the walk if we've identified the wrong place!

                While I see the logic that Neil would have sent him to Bethnal Green, within H Division, it occurs to me that Mizen (a J Division constable) had already left his beat without any authority and would he really have been comfortable to have "gone missing" for perhaps 20 minutes or half an hour while fetching an ambulance from H Division? For that reason, I have always assumed he turned back into his own Division (presumably Leman Street police station?) and informed a superior officer of what had happened so that they knew where he was and what he was doing (and so that could be replaced on his beat by another constable).

                As for Sgt Kirby, note that Buck's Row was on his patrol route. Inspector Spratling's report of 31 August records that Neil "passed through Bucks Row at 3.15am and P.S.10.Kirby about the same time". So I have always assumed that he came across the scene organically through patrolling.

                Also, I'd quite like confirmation that the nearest ambulance would definitely have been at a police station.

                As you say, this one has Monty written all over it and if we are lucky he will appear.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hello David,

                  No better source than Inspector A, himself.


                  MEPO 3/140, f239

                  19 Sept 88

                  "... In the meantime PC Mizen had been sent for the ambulance and assistance from Bethnal Green Station ..."

                  He came back with the ambulance and a posse of police including Inspector Spartling.

                  (I guessing you meant Mizen was H div, not J;-)
                  Last edited by drstrange169; 01-09-2015, 11:17 PM.
                  dustymiller
                  aka drstrange

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Ah yes, very good, I hadn't registered that previously and I always miss the Abberline report when going through the Sourcebook because it's in the Chapman section. And yes, of course, I did get my H and J the wrong way round. Okay, well, yes then, I will do the walk at the next opportunity and report back when it's done.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Job done. Starting from the construction barrier which is now in Durward Street (a few yards from the murder site), I walked at quite a brisk but not excessively fast pace, like a man on a mission, as Mizen presumably would have been, along the red route in your map - the blue route no longer exists - up Brady Street, right into Three Colts Lane, left into Wilmot Street then right into Ainsley Street. The walk to the top of Ainsley Street took a total of exactly 7 minutes (broken down into: 1:55 from the barrier to 74 Brady Street, now a fried chicken shop, where I paused momentarily to look at it and then 5:05 from there to Ainsley Street). I have no idea where the police station used to be but if it is where the star is on your map, which is the point the street curves towards Bethnal Green, I walked to there and it took a further 36 seconds.

                      So, depending on where the police station was within the street, and allowing for the few extra seconds from the site to where the construction barrier is, we can say it would probably have taken Mizen about 8 minutes to reach the police-station from the murder site had he walked at a brisk pace. The blue route might have been a little faster.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Coming back probably a little longer, as he had to trundle the ambulance.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Robert View Post
                          Coming back probably a little longer, as he had to trundle the ambulance.
                          Did he trundle the ambulance, or someone from the mortuary?
                          G U T

                          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Hi GUT

                            I'd assumed he'd trundle it, as he was going that way anyway, as long as it didn't take too long. But you're right, if someone from the mortuary trundled it, they could then have taken the body to the mortuary - otherwise Mizen would have been even longer away from his beat. That would presumably mean that Mizen didn't see the body loaded on to the ambulance, though, assuming that Mizen outpaced the ambulance trundler so as to get back to his beat more quickly.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Thank you for that David. Hopefully you live locally, I'd hate to think you came down from Scotland to do it!

                              The police station covered the whole block, so it's difficult to say exactly where Mizen would have entered. Neither do we know if he knew the way or got directions from PC Neil. But, all in all that helps a lot, a clearer picture is slowly emerging, thanks again.

                              Hello Robert,

                              Mizen helped load the body onto the ambulance and went to the mortuary with PC Neil and Sergeant Kirby.
                              dustymiller
                              aka drstrange

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                No, it's fine, I'm not too far away - a relatively short train ride. The walks are good in understanding the scene. I think the most interesting thing I discovered was just how far Corbet's Court was from Baker's Row - basically the entire length of Hanbury Street - so if Cross saw Paul walk into that court, as he says he did, the two of them must presumably have walked together all the way down Hanbury Street (talking to each other?).

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X