Alternative entrences / exits to #29 Hanbury crime scene?

[Jon Guy]

Hey john what do u hear what do u say, that is real interesting story! Where did you read that? I'd be interested i learning more about that. What spiritual group I wonder? It's interesting the connection between the hardimans & richardsons. I was recently reading the essay on casebook about Morris and hardiman were james hardiman was proposed as the ripper. I wonder what james hardimans movements were that morning and how close he was to john richardson. It's also interesting that Thomas richardson alerted his mother to the murder.

Hi Rocky

From The Echo 12th Sept 1888:

Amelia Richardson: On Friday night I had a prayer-meeting?
The Coroner - A what?
Witness - A prayer-meeting there, until half-past nine. I locked the room then, and it was locked until I came down in the morning.

[RockySullivan]

We have only Richardson's word that it was the manky old knife produced, that he'd previously brought to the scene...

First he says he checked the door, then he says he sat on the step and cut some leather off his boot, then as if sensing the corner he's talking himself into, he says the knife was too blunt, and when the coroner sends him off with a copper to get said knife, he comes back with a rusty and broken old relic...

Now this may or may not be suspicious, and it could well be this is an innocent but frightened fellow desperately trying to cover himself, but if the good doctor was actually right about the time of death, then I find it hard to believe Richardson could sit on that step and not see the body, or smell it for that matter...

Another innocent possibility, of course, is that Richardson was supposed to check the cellar door, skipped it, then fearing an earbashing from his mother, told a little fib, which by necessity then grew into a bloody great lie which he couldn't escape...

Lots of people tell the police lies, sometimes for small, stupid, private reasons, sometimes for more important reasons, but somewhere or another here, for me at least, there's something a bit iffy...and if Richardson was our man, or even if he wasn't and that earlier TOD is correct, then I don't see at that earlier time, there's half so much reason for an alternative entrance/exit...

All the best

Dave

Exactly. The ripper most likely entered & exited thru the hall. At 350 am:
Thompson left for work without going into the back yard. Mrs Richardson, dozing fitfully, heard him pass her room and called out, "Good morning."41

Why doesn't amelia hear the ripper enter? Does she hear her son john walk thru the hall? It sounds like the residents hear everyone who walks thru, and amelia knows everyone's schedule. So if the ripper walked thru, she would've heard it, unless she's a heavy sleeper....but then why does Thompson waker her up? It's all wrong

[Cogidubnus]

We have only Richardson's word that it was the manky old knife produced, that he'd previously brought to the scene...

First he says he checked the door, then he says he sat on the step and cut some leather off his boot, then as if sensing the corner he's talking himself into, he says the knife was too blunt, and when the coroner sends him off with a copper to get said knife, he comes back with a rusty and broken old relic...

Now this may or may not be suspicious, and it could well be this is an innocent but frightened fellow desperately trying to cover himself, but if the good doctor was actually right about the time of death, then I find it hard to believe Richardson could sit on that step and not see the body, or smell it for that matter...

Another innocent possibility, of course, is that Richardson was supposed to check the cellar door, skipped it, then fearing an earbashing from his mother, told a little fib, which by necessity then grew into a bloody great lie which he couldn't escape...

Lots of people tell the police lies, sometimes for small, stupid, private reasons, sometimes for more important reasons, but somewhere or another here, for me at least, there's something a bit iffy...and if Richardson was our man, or even if he wasn't and that earlier TOD is correct, then I don't see at that earlier time, there's half so much reason for an alternative entrance/exit...

All the best

Dave

[RockySullivan]

Whoops. Is there a way to delete post

[RockySullivan]

This does suggest, IMHO, an extremely innocent reason for him to have lied.

That's one way of looking at it. To me it looks sinister because he's holding a knife at the murder site. His story also fell apart at the inquest under questioning and he changed it again.

[Ginger]

If richardson told chandler he was next to the murder spot with a knife, he would've been arrested.

This does suggest, IMHO, an extremely innocent reason for him to have lied.

[RockySullivan]

Thomas Richardson alerted his grandmother, not mother, to the murder. He probably heard the fuss downstairs. Amelia Richardson was a deeply religious woman who held weekly prayer meetings in the ground floor back room. She let an old lady stay in the back attic room rent free.

Thanks rosella, I meant grandmother. Why would richardson need to stop at his mothers to check the cellar padlock when his son could easily look..

[Rosella]

Thomas Richardson alerted his grandmother, not mother, to the murder. He probably heard the fuss downstairs. Amelia Richardson was a deeply religious woman who held weekly prayer meetings in the ground floor back room. She let an old lady stay in the back attic room rent free.

[RockySullivan]

Yes, John Richardson`s son lived at number 29 with his grandmother.

On the Friday night previous to the murder both the Richardson lad and the young Hardiman boy were both going to spend the night in the downstairs back room (the window to the right of the back door if standing in the doorway looking out). This room was used by Mrs Richardson that Friday evening as a meeting room for some spiritual group.
However, rather ominously, both the lads had second thoughts about spending the night in that room.

Hey john what do u hear what do u say, that is real interesting story! Where did you read that? I'd be interested i learning more about that. What spiritual group I wonder? It's interesting the connection between the hardimans & richardsons. I was recently reading the essay on casebook about Morris and hardiman were james hardiman was proposed as the ripper. I wonder what james hardimans movements were that morning and how close he was to john richardson. It's also interesting that Thomas richardson alerted his mother to the murder.

[Jon Guy]

From the Echo 12th Sept 88

About six o'clock my grandson, Thomas Richardson, fourteen years of age, came upstairs, and said, "Granny, there's a woman murdered." There had been a great noise in the passage, so I sent him down to see what was the matter. It was then he said, "Granny, a woman is murdered." I went down. There was no one in the yard, but some people were in the passage. I occupy the first floor front room. My grandson slept in the same room on Friday night. I went to bed at about half-past nine.

[Jon Guy]

Was it John Richardson's son who lived with his grandmother though? In the 1881 Census Amelia Richardson and her husband have a Thomas Richardson aged 5 (their grandson) living with them.

At the same time, (1881) John Richardson and his wife Caroline have a son, Thomas aged 7, living with them in Lambeth.

I thought it was Thomas Richardson but looking at the press they refer to her grandson as Charles Cooksley.

[Rosella]

Was it John Richardson's son who lived with his grandmother though? In the 1881 Census Amelia Richardson and her husband have a Thomas Richardson aged 5 (their grandson) living with them.

At the same time, (1881) John Richardson and his wife Caroline have a son, Thomas aged 7, living with them in Lambeth.

[Jon Guy]

Was his son the one who lived at 29 with the grandmother?

Yes, John Richardson`s son lived at number 29 with his grandmother.

On the Friday night previous to the murder both the Richardson lad and the young Hardiman boy were both going to spend the night in the downstairs back room (the window to the right of the back door if standing in the doorway looking out). This room was used by Mrs Richardson that Friday evening as a meeting room for some spiritual group.
However, rather ominously, both the lads had second thoughts about spending the night in that room.

[RockySullivan]

Thomas probably lived with his parents in the 1870's though he wasn't there in the 1880's. 'Lunatic' in Victorian times could mean anything from schizophrenia to what we now call Downs Syndrome or maybe severe learning difficulties also, the whole gamut.

Sugden remarks that Chandler had a hurried conversation in the passage way with John Richardson when he arrived that morning before going on to the morgue. He didn't take a formal statement and probably misremembered what Richardson said.

Possible but since richardson would go on to change his tune again, it's more likely richardson told chandler a different story. Much much more likely. If richardson told chandler he was next to the murder spot with a knife, he would've been arrested.

[Rosella]

Thomas probably lived with his parents in the 1870's though he wasn't there in the 1880's. 'Lunatic' in Victorian times could mean anything from schizophrenia to what we now call Downs Syndrome or maybe severe learning difficulties also, the whole gamut.

Sugden remarks that Chandler had a hurried conversation in the passage way with John Richardson when he arrived that morning before going on to the morgue. He didn't take a formal statement and probably misremembered what Richardson said.