Berner Street help

[Bridewell]

Sugden has a report from the Star newspaper, which stated that it had heard from two sources that a man passing through Church Lane at about half past one, saw a male sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. Apparently he tried to conceal his face when he saw he was being watched. He was described as wearing a short jacket and a sailor's hat.

Now the time is obviously wrong (though hardly anybody had watches) and it is a newspaper report, but, something to keep in mind perhaps.

This sighting gets a mention in an earlier thread. Thanks, Rosella, for flagging this up. If this sighting is relevant it has the killer of Stride going roughly north north-west from Berner Street and the killer of Eddowes roughly north-east from Mitre Square. A projection of the two lines intersects around Flower & Dean Street.

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-6151.html

[Geister]

This sighting gets a mention in an earlier thread. Thanks, Rosella, for flagging this up. If this sighting is relevant it has the killer of Stride going roughly north north-west from Berner Street and the killer of Eddowes roughly north-east from Mitre Square. A projection of the two lines intersects around Flower & Dean Street.

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-6151.html

Thanks, looking at that thread now.

[Abby Normal]

Sugden has a report from the Star newspaper, which stated that it had heard from two sources that a man passing through Church Lane at about half past one, saw a male sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. Apparently he tried to conceal his face when he saw he was being watched. He was described as wearing a short jacket and a sailor's hat.

Now the time is obviously wrong (though hardly anybody had watches) and it is a newspaper report, but, something to keep in mind perhaps.

Hi Rosella
I have often quoted this sighting as I believe that the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event and if this story is correct then that makes 5 witnesses who describe a man/suspect wearing a peaked cap: Marshall, Smith and Schwartz at the Berner street murder, Lawende at Mitre square, and the church street man in between.

The ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

[Rosella]

Yes Amanda, I believe so too. Some good witnesses there, and I do think it was Jack who was wiping his hands. However, as Chapman proves (he was very fond of naval-type peaked hats) it was probably more of a fashion statement than a pointer to the Ripper's profession.

[Hakeswill]

Regarding the Church Lane sighting, Sugden points out that the description may be valuable because it came before any other descriptions of a peak-cap man had been issued. It is though worth reading the Daily Star articles (Oct 1st) from which this mention came. There are several other sightings mentioned (for example 'umbrella man' observed near Mitre Square), and the Church Lane alleged sighting sticks out mainly because of the subsequent reports, not because of any particular veracity ("From two different sources we have the story..."). Other sources are named in the article, these 'sources' were not. In addition, the journalist displays some animosity towards the Leman Street police, suggesting they are unhelpful with giving information and at one point describing:

"In the midst of the excitement following on the Berner-street murder, some of the police were mean enough to try to purchase tobacco and drink from some of the members of the Jewish club. Money was tendered when request was made, but was, of course, refused. The police were not so entirely absorbed in endeavoring to catch the criminal but that they could attempt to inveigle innocent persons into committing a petty crime for the sake of securing a paltry conviction."

It could be the journalist was trying to point to the ineptitude of the police by highlighting a possible sighting of someone near the crime scene 'wiping their hands'.

With regards to timing, Church Lane runs by the side of St Mary's. I have no idea if bells were rung through the night to give an indicator of timings. Several people on various boards will point out the lack of watches at the time. There were clocks around though, for example Harris's tobacconists at the top of Berner Street. It would be interesting to know if there were other examples of publicly visible clocks around. The lack of personal time keepers might well draw people's attention more to public clocks when they are near, in other words I don't think we can automatically assume every witness's sense of timing was hopelessly skewed. Make this sighting fifteen minutes earlier however, and it would fit with events a lot better.

Having said all that, the Church Lane sighting is very interesting. I personally think the Lawende group got the best sighting of the killer, and timing aside, this report squares up with the Lawende description.

[GUT]

G'day Hakeswill

Many Churches also had clocks. The big issue to me is how accurately they were set, I know that many public clocks, in Churches in particular, were set a couple of times a day, or supposed to be.

[Rosella]

That again would speak, I suppose, to how accurate the church timekeepers watches were. Even so, it would indeed have been easier if the man had been spotted at 1:10am or 1:15.

[Hakeswill]

Thanks GUT.

Your post sent me off on a quick search about the accuracy of church clocks. I would presume that resetting a church clock would be no small task, particularly if it was an old mechanism. I've not found much yet on church clock's accuracy. There is the clock further up the road on the Hospital, and since the underground was not far either I would suggest that around Whitechapel High Street clocks would have been relatively synchronised. I'm also making assumptions about church clocks chiming (Mrs long timed her sighting from the brewery clock of course). Maybe locals subconsciously tuned the noises out unless they had a particular reason to note the time. Gut instinct is that in the working population timings were reasonably accurate, but within say a fifteen minute tolerance.

[Abby Normal]

Regarding the Church Lane sighting, Sugden points out that the description may be valuable because it came before any other descriptions of a peak-cap man had been issued. It is though worth reading the Daily Star articles (Oct 1st) from which this mention came. There are several other sightings mentioned (for example 'umbrella man' observed near Mitre Square), and the Church Lane alleged sighting sticks out mainly because of the subsequent reports, not because of any particular veracity ("From two different sources we have the story..."). Other sources are named in the article, these 'sources' were not. In addition, the journalist displays some animosity towards the Leman Street police, suggesting they are unhelpful with giving information and at one point describing:

"In the midst of the excitement following on the Berner-street murder, some of the police were mean enough to try to purchase tobacco and drink from some of the members of the Jewish club. Money was tendered when request was made, but was, of course, refused. The police were not so entirely absorbed in endeavoring to catch the criminal but that they could attempt to inveigle innocent persons into committing a petty crime for the sake of securing a paltry conviction."

It could be the journalist was trying to point to the ineptitude of the police by highlighting a possible sighting of someone near the crime scene 'wiping their hands'.

With regards to timing, Church Lane runs by the side of St Mary's. I have no idea if bells were rung through the night to give an indicator of timings. Several people on various boards will point out the lack of watches at the time. There were clocks around though, for example Harris's tobacconists at the top of Berner Street. It would be interesting to know if there were other examples of publicly visible clocks around. The lack of personal time keepers might well draw people's attention more to public clocks when they are near, in other words I don't think we can automatically assume every witness's sense of timing was hopelessly skewed. Make this sighting fifteen minutes earlier however, and it would fit with events a lot better.

Having said all that, the Church Lane sighting is very interesting. I personally think the Lawende group got the best sighting of the killer, and timing aside, this report squares up with the Lawende description.

Hi Hakeswill
Yes it is VERY significant that the church street sighting of peaked cap man came out before any of the descriptions. The independence of that sighting leads to its authenticity. it also helps explain the timing as since it was reported independently of the other sightings-the time stated by the witness was surely just an approximation. But even as an approximation its still amazingly close to jibing with the events of the double event.

There is no doubt in my mind that the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night and marshall, Schwartz and Lawende all saw him. and probably Smith and church street witness as well.

[GUT]

Thanks GUT.

Your post sent me off on a quick search about the accuracy of church clocks. I would presume that resetting a church clock would be no small task, particularly if it was an old mechanism. I've not found much yet on church clock's accuracy. There is the clock further up the road on the Hospital, and since the underground was not far either I would suggest that around Whitechapel High Street clocks would have been relatively synchronised. I'm also making assumptions about church clocks chiming (Mrs long timed her sighting from the brewery clock of course). Maybe locals subconsciously tuned the noises out unless they had a particular reason to note the time. Gut instinct is that in the working population timings were reasonably accurate, but within say a fifteen minute tolerance.

I had a lot of clergy in my family tree like going back about 7 or generations and from some materials that have survived some were a lot more conscientious than others, human nature I guess, as understand it they were supposed to adjust the clock twice a day, setting it to the next clock visible from their church unless they had a personal timepiece.

I lived for years in a house with a chiming clock and while you "tuned it out" you always had a fair idea of the time, it must have been subconscious, but as they chimed every 15 mins your timing would basically be +/- 7.5 mns. Also inthe days of analog clocks if someone asked you the time it was always 5, 10 15 etc to or after, t is only since digital that we've got fixated on the exact minute.

[Bridewell]

Hi Rosella
I have often quoted this sighting as I believe that the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event and if this story is correct then that makes 5 witnesses who describe a man/suspect wearing a peaked cap: Marshall, Smith and Schwartz at the Berner street murder, Lawende at Mitre square, and the church street man in between.

The ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

I think so. The Church Street sighting needs to be treated with some caution but I think Marshall, Smith, Schwartz and Lawende could have been describing the same individual. That said, I don't think any of them was Anderson's witness.

[The Cenci]

The Henriques Street street sign is currently vandalised. Almost snapped in half.

[yen_powell]

The Henriques Street street sign is currently vandalised. Almost snapped in half.

Can be reported on 0207 364 5004

[The Cenci]

Done!

Ever the model citizen...