How "safe" were the respective murder sites?

[John G]

Stride's murder was committed in a natural bottleneck just within the gates, which was an incredibly risky spot to choose (or be lured into) in order to commit an evisceration murder. That "bottleneck" puts it on a par with Hanbury Street, but at least the latter didn't have alternative exits and entrances, unlike Dutfield's Yard with its side doors and outhouses. Dutfield's was made even riskier in my view, by the comparative bustle in and around Berner Street and the Clubhouse itself; such conditions didn't seem to apply at sleepy Hanbury.

Ah, but the "alternative exists and entrances" would also have given the killer more escape opportunities and hiding places, as you, rightly, argued was the case with Mitre Square. I also feel that when comparing risk you have to take into consideration the lighting conditions. At Hanbury Street sunrise was at 5:23 so if Chapman was killed after this time it would presumably have been fairly light, whereas, in contrast, Dutfield's Yard seemed to be cloaked in almost total darkness, I mean, even Diemschutz initially mistook Stride's body for a heap of dirt, and that from pretty close range. Incredibly, it didn't seem to be that much brighter inside the club: PC Lamb was forced to strike a match in order to examine the hands and clothing of the club members. And, of course, the darkness would also have afforded the killer a perfect opportunity to hide away in the yard if disturbed.

However, having reviewed a number of sources I am forced to concede that Berner Street and the surrounding area didn't seem to be at all "sleepy", although reviewing Fanny Mortimer's account maybe some of the witnesses, i.e Mortimer, were!

Nonetheless, I am surprised that "sleepy" Hanbury Street wasn't busier than it appeared to be. I mean, surely in a working class district in Victorian England a whole range of people would have been getting ready to go to work, or leaving for work, after 5:00am? I really wonder if the local police may have been less than robust at identifying potential witnesses. Or am I just being cynical?

[lynn cates]

game

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"And that also means that Longīs sighting was no longer considered a clue in October. Exit Long."

You're playing a game now. Exit Christer.

As for Phillips, here is PRECISELY what Baxter said of his time.

"It was true that Dr. Phillips thought that when he saw the body at 6.30 the deceased had been dead at least two hours, but he admitted that the coldness of the morning and the great loss of blood might affect his opinion, and if the evidence of the other witnesses was correct, Dr. Phillips had miscalculated the effect of those forces." ("Ultimate" pp. 103 & 4.)

With all due respect, it is time to stop playing games.

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Ah, but the "alternative exists and entrances" would also have given the killer more escape opportunities and hiding places, as you, rightly, argued was the case with Mitre Square.

Not if, as in Dutfield's Yard, those alternative exits and entrances took you into an occupied building!

However, having reviewed a number of sources I am forced to concede that Berner Street and the surrounding area didn't seem to be at all "sleepy"

Quite so. The entire area - let alone the narrow bottleneck at the entrance to Dutfield's Yard - was not a good place to go in search of potential dissection specimens. A local Jack would probably have known that, too, which is why most of the evisceration murders happened in comparatively "safe" locations. With the exception of Hanbury Street, of course.

Nonetheless, I am surprised that "sleepy" Hanbury Street wasn't busier than it appeared to be.

It seems to have been, by all accounts, at the time Chapman was murdered and/or her body was discovered. The comparative quietness around Hanbury Street is its saving grace; were it not for that fact, it would have been a much riskier venue than Dutfield's Yard.

[Sam Flynn]

Nice to see you posting again by the way.

Thanks, CD. Life is pretty up-and-down at the moment, but I still have the occasional lucid period

But what if Stride did or said something that made Jack want to kill her right there and then?

Possible, but Jack was rather experienced by now. I doubt that the person so recently responsible for an evisceration murder as elaborate as Chapman's would have been unduly spooked by anything Liz may have said. If he had, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have let her get away with a mere cut throat; he could at least have messed up her face a little, ā la Eddowes that very same night.

And is it correct to look at the choice of location from only the perspective of the killer? Maybe [Stride] felt that being near the club enabled her to call out for help if she needed it.

A good observation. We should, of course, take the victims' perspectives into account - although, in Stride's case, it seems that she was seen at various locations, possibly with different men, throughout the night. She didn't seem unduly worried, as far as I can tell.

If Jack wanted to kill her and she would not budge in choice of location what was he to do?

Move on... to find a different victim in a quieter part of town. I think Jack was a man who knew what he was doing, and was very much in possession of his faculties when he set out to kill. From that perspective, I believe he chose his moments carefully.

[Sam Flynn]

"Sleepy Hanbury"? At 5.30? Come on - people were rising all over to start their day, and there would have been nothing sleepy about it.

They were beginning to rise (cf. Davis and Cadoche), and there were only a few cart-drivers somewhere down the street when Davis ran out to get help. It was sleepy enough, alright.

It would arguably have been the busiest street of them all at that remove in time.

The evidence in no way supports that suggestion.

... but at 3.30, it would have been decidely sleepy.

Indeed, but thankfully this is not a Crossmere "Time Of Death" thread, Fish.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hello Sam,

Nice to see you posting again by the way.

But what if Stride did or said something that made Jack want to kill her right there and then? And is it correct to look at the choice of location from only the perspective of the killer? I am sure that Stride was aware of the two previous murders as well as that of Tabram. Maybe she felt that being near the club enabled her to call out for help if she needed it. If Jack wanted to kill her and she would not budge in choice of location what was he to do?

c.d.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but if I understand you correctly, there is a possibility that Stride suspected her assaillant of being JtR, so he killed her, not as one of his "fantaisie murder" but to silence her, because she's seen him? So Jack wasn't interrupted?

This is a very interesting angle, I must say.
Chapeau!

Now back to our regular programming.

[RockySullivan]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but if I understand you correctly, there is a possibility that Stride suspected her assaillant of being JtR, so he killed her, not as one of his "fantaisie murder" but to silence her, because she's seen him? So Jack wasn't interrupted?

This is a very interesting angle, I must say.
Chapeau!

Now back to our regular programming.

Interesting theory...wasnt Eddowes the one who claimed to know the ripper's identity? Perhaps The ripper was on a mission that night.

[John G]

You know I can't help but thinking that James Brown's evidence might be crucial in respect of the Stride murder location. Brown stated that he saw a man bending over a women, who he later stated was almost certainly Stride, and giving the impression that he was impeding her. He then heard the woman say, "No, not tonight, some other night." Now, all of this suggests to me that the man may have been propositioning Stride and she was rebuking his advances, possibly because she wasn't soliciting on that particular evening.

Now, the Brown sighting was around 12:45 and Strides's body was discovered at 1:00am and, for reasons I outlined in earlier posts, I believe that the evidence points to her being killed just prior to that time.

Is it therefore possible that, in the intervening 15 minutes, her killer was trying to persuade her to go with him to a more secluded location that he had selected? If so, I would speculate that, increasingly frustrated, his patients ran out and that resulted in the altercation/assault witnessed by Schwartz. And if he was the same man who killed Nicholls and Chapman, he might have become overconfident, and prone to riskier behavior as a result of those earlier successors.

Speculating further, at this point, and assuming he intends to eviscerate Stride, he's forced to improvise. He notices the near pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard, which he forces her in to. Then, in typical Ripper fashion, he quickly forces her to the ground and slits her throat, expertly avoiding arterial spray- very little blood was apparent at the murder site-by cutting the throat when she was near to the ground (gravity) and using her scarf as a ligature to stem the flow of blood.

Now I would argue that this particular location wasn't such a bad choice. It was very dark, and therefore secluded to that extent, and the murder took place at the front of the yard, giving the killer a clear escape route into the street. Yes, there seemed to be quite a few people milling about, but Schwartz and Pipeman had been easily repulsed and clearly none of the locals presented anything like the threat of PCs Harvey and Watkins, especially as Eddowes' killer had entered the Square as little as 5 minutes prior to Harvey's arrival and 8 minutes before Watkins'.

Nonetheless, he perhaps becomes concerned by the adjacent noisy club and the appalling lighting conditions were hardly conducive to someone intending to eviscerate his victim. Eventually, he decides that this is all too risky and fleas the scene in search of another victim.

Well, the argument sounds good to me but i'm sure others will notice a few minor flaws!

[Cogidubnus]

I would speculate that, increasingly frustrated, his patients ran out

Hi John G

You're surely not propounding the "Ripper as a medical man" theory are you?

All the best

Dave

[Sam Flynn]

It was very dark, and therefore secluded to that extent

It certainly wasn't secluded, John - not by any stretch of the imagination.

[John G]

Hi John G

You're surely not propounding the "Ripper as a medical man" theory are you?

All the best

Dave

Wouldn't dream of it! Okay, my prime suspect is Dr Rees Llewellyn, but I thought I was being very objective- at least I didn't mention Dr Phillips excellent/inspired professional opinion that Chapman's killer had anatomical knowledge and a degree of surgical skill! However, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "expertly"!

Cheers,

John

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: They were beginning to rise (cf. Davis and Cadoche), and there were only a few cart-drivers somewhere down the street when Davis ran out to get help. It was sleepy enough, alright.

They were beginning to rise, yes. In the other venues they were not. Describing Hanbury Street as sleepy relative to the other venues is wrong. Thatīs what Iīm saying.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

It certainly wasn't secluded, John - not by any stretch of the imagination.

... but the killer could well have reasoned that it WAS secluded. And that is all-important.

The best,
Fisherman

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Is it therefore possible that, in the intervening 15 minutes, her killer was trying to persuade her to go with him to a more secluded location that he had selected? If so, I would speculate that, increasingly frustrated, his patients ran out and that resulted in the altercation/assault witnessed by Schwartz. And if he was the same man who killed Nicholls and Chapman, he might have become overconfident, and prone to riskier behavior as a result of those earlier successors.

My only problem with the man assaulting Stride in the street being JtR is the fact that Whitechapel was going already on high alert with JtR. Stride yelled, but not very loudly. She just had to scream "Ripper" and the man would have run for his life.

It does also explain why JtR couldn't rely on very secluded place close to his hunting grounds; they were probably under surveillance.

He had to take more risks in two ways:
-He had to go farther than his original intent.
-He had to go earlier in the night.

[John G]

It certainly wasn't secluded, John - not by any stretch of the imagination.

Are, that's why I introduced a qualification: "secluded to that extent". To my mind much off the yard must have been cloaked in almost total darkness. That would explain why Lave struggled to find his way back into the club, or even find the door, and why Diemschutz originally mistook Stride's body for a heap of dirt. Of course, I'm not suggesting that the location was ideal- but then neither was Mitre Square or Hanbury Street. However, if the killer was forced to improvise after becoming frustrated, i.e. because of Stride's lack of cooperation, I don't think it was too bad a choice, especially for a killer willing to take risks or brimming with overconfidence after previous successors.

Best wishes,

John