How "safe" were the respective murder sites?

[GUT]

I'll just skip in here and say that to get fourpence for a drinky-poo a woman would have to go out on the streets, get a client, then persuade him to take her to the pub and buy her a pint.

Yep or get two punters, one for her doss one for her gin.

[Rosella]

I'll just skip in here and say that to get fourpence for a drinky-poo a woman would have to go out on the streets, get a client, then persuade him to take her to the pub and buy her a pint.

[MrBarnett]

Talk about an oxymoron.

And we used to have a dog named Twopence.

Gut,

Please tell me you pronounced your dog's name tuppence and not too pence .

The fate of the Anglo/Oz relationship may depend on your answer.

MrB

[GUT]

Gut,

Try saying tuppence instead of two p. It might give you some Dickensian cred amongst the more discerning Aussie youff.

MrB .

Talk about an oxymoron.

And we used to have a dog named Twopence.

[MrBarnett]

Yep I know, but when ever I say a couple of d people say "What???"

Good ole LSD.

Gut,

Try saying tuppence instead of two p. It might give you some Dickensian cred amongst the more discerning Aussie youff.

MrB .

[GUT]

Gut,

In those days it was d not p.

MrB

Yep I know, but when ever I say a couple of d people say "What???"

Good ole LSD.

[MrBarnett]

And in which district were the most homeless women? If women were working the streets in some number in any district of London at the time, then the fact that the poorest district had the most homeless should enlighten us somewhat on this point.

Cheers

Michael,

Have you ever been to London?

MrB

[MrBarnett]

G'day Rosella

But how do they get the first couple of p together for a little drinky poo.

Gut,

In those days it was d not p.

MrB

[GUT]

I'm sure some of the clientele of Bermondsey, Tower Hamlets, Bethnal Green etc wouldnt object too strongly to women who contented themselves with 'a lick and a promise', (as those sort of washes were referred to by my grandmother!)

What I meant was though, that of course women who lived from hand to mouth were forced out onto the streets every day at all hours. Surely they would be more likely, though, to go and have a drink and try and pick up a client in the more warm and convivial atmosphere of a pub after dark, (once they'd scraped a couple of pennies together for a drink,) rather than trawl the streets in bad weather, anyway. That's my guess anyway.

G'day Rosella

But how do they get the first couple of p together for a little drinky poo.

[Rosella]

I'm sure some of the clientele of Bermondsey, Tower Hamlets, Bethnal Green etc wouldnt object too strongly to women who contented themselves with 'a lick and a promise', (as those sort of washes were referred to by my grandmother!)

What I meant was though, that of course women who lived from hand to mouth were forced out onto the streets every day at all hours. Surely they would be more likely, though, to go and have a drink and try and pick up a client in the more warm and convivial atmosphere of a pub after dark, (once they'd scraped a couple of pennies together for a drink,) rather than trawl the streets in bad weather, anyway. That's my guess anyway.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

What has Haymarket at 12.30 got to do with, say, Bucks Row at 3.45?

In London terms they were polar opposites.

MrB

And in which district were the most homeless women? If women were working the streets in some number in any district of London at the time, then the fact that the poorest district had the most homeless should enlighten us somewhat on this point.

Cheers

[MrBarnett]

Despite the lack of enthusiasm for my analogy, there seems to be evidence that prostitutes might expect to find customers on the street very early in the morning in that particular area. We have the Tabram story, the Nichols story and the Chapman story as just 3 examples of that. We have Mary Ann Cox going out until 3am. All of these cases involved women expecting to meet men outdoors after 2:30am...and in Chapmans case, considerably later.

From the Star on Oct 12th, 1888; "Superintendent Thoms, of the C division (in which the Haymarket is) states that after the public-houses are closed at half-past twelve some 20,000 persons are brought into the streets and are subject to police control. A large proportion, chiefly young men of all grades of society, remain to promenade, and as a consequence prostitutes from various parts are present also."

Without beating this small point to death, I believe my statement that there were still many people out in the streets in the early morning hours stands on its own merit. Of course there were less than during the daylight hours, or even earlier in the evening. But these were not deserted streets in the wee hours..as is alluded to about Berner Street on that particular night before 1am.

And for the record I am familiar with Dickens stories....(although not from the exact same period), and I think the Poverty Map is more useful myself.

Cheers

Michael,

What has Haymarket at 12.30 got to do with, say, Bucks Row at 3.45?

In London terms they were polar opposites.

MrB

[Michael W Richards]

There is a middle ground, though, between streets teeming with people and completely deserted. There were contemporary observations that at the height of the terror, particularly after the double event, that darker side streets were less frequented at night.

Gradually confidence returned and so, to a certain extent, did the inhabitants, who started venturing out again at night. These included the women who had to make a living or else they would starve. That doesn't mean that, especially as winter advanced, ill-lit side streets would necessarily be crowded with people.

Surely some of the brothel workers at least would have drifted to nearby districts, especially while the scare was on.

It was reported that the streets returned to the average traffic amounts shortly after a Ripper killing, lending credence to the suggestion that they were forced by circumstances to work in streets where a killer, or killers, were on the loose. Yes they could have changed districts, but how well would a shabbily dressed homeless woman who likely bathed "French" style if at all....(my grandmother from Clapham Common used to refer to facecloth washing as "whores bathing" )....do in the more upscale neighborhoods?

Cheers

[Rosella]

There is a middle ground, though, between streets teeming with people and completely deserted. There were contemporary observations that at the height of the terror, particularly after the double event, that darker side streets were less frequented at night.

Gradually confidence returned and so, to a certain extent, did the inhabitants, who started venturing out again at night. These included the women who had to make a living or else they would starve. That doesn't mean that, especially as winter advanced, ill-lit side streets would necessarily be crowded with people.

Surely some of the brothel workers at least would have drifted to nearby districts, especially while the scare was on.

[Michael W Richards]

In the context of this thread, the number of people on the streets is crucial. I think Berners Street actually supports my suggestion that between 1 and 4, say, the streets were very quiet. Stride was killed shortly after the pubs had closed and there were still a number of people around.

The poverty map shows the economic status of the residents of streets/individual buildings. It doesn't cover the homeless.

Cheers,

MrB

Well I suppose that means you don't believe Israel Schwartz's story then, because he adds himself and 2 other people to the same street that the young couple was seen on. Hardly deserted.

Truth is I don't believe Israel myself, but the point is moot...Fanny says it was deserted except for the young couple, but if Israel was honest, then you have 5 people out on that street during the critical times. And really, this murder is so early that its hardly the best choice for an example.

I mentioned the Poverty Maps because they show you where the poorest people in a census were located, the point was of course to illustrate that this was a ghetto. Ghettos have transients, they have residents, and they have street people...all of which were in that small square mile, and its a fact that there was not enough room inside for everyone,..particularly the ones that didn't have a cent to their names.

We know that some landlords began to let women without money stay for a night indoors in the midst of the murders, but that wasn't a policy or their good hearted nature, it was a measure to prevent them being seem as the cause for women to be out at all hours and therefore left for Jack to kill. Before that Fall women and men were regularly denied lodging because of money, and Annie Chapmans story and Polly Nichols story both support that fact. 200 brothels in London had been recently shut down by a zealous do-gooder, where do you think all those women went?

I tried not to belabour what seems to me to be a small but undeniable fact, but the persistent resistance to those facts necessitated another go at it.

Cheers