How "safe" were the respective murder sites?

[John G]

To my mind. as regards the various murder sites, just about everything was to the killer's advantage. Firstly, much of Whitechapel seems to have been a veritable maze. Inspector Moore, who took over the general investigation from Inspector Abberline, pointed out that at one of the murder locations the police formed a cordon, believing that they had secured the site. However, within a few minutes about 50 people had breached this cordon via two passageways the police couldn't find. He also noted how the locals tended not to lock their doors, meaning that a murderer "just had to lift the latch of the nearest house and walk through it and out the back way."

Secondly, there was the issue of police beats. My understanding is that beat officers had to stick to a rigid pattern, so that their sergeant would know where to find them at any particular time. But, of course, this would work to the advantage of any killer that chose to familiarize themselves with the beats of the local officers.

Thirdly, there was the poor lighting conditions throughout much of Whitechapel. For instance, at Dutfield's Yard it was so dark that Diemshutz originally thought that he'd been obstructed by heap of dirt. Even on closer inspection, and after he'd lit a match, he mistook Stride for his own wife! He only realized his mistake after he entered the club and discovered that his wife was very much alive.

Fourthly, there was the inclinations of locals not to get involved. Cries of "murder!" were regularly ignored at Miller's Court because they were considered commonplace. And, as I noted in an earlier post, this seems to have been pretty much the situation at Berner Street as well.

Fifthly, even busy streets could work to the murderer's advantage because he could simply merge with the crowds- providing he wasn't wearing a leather apron and carrying a bloody knife and a Gladstone bag, of course!

In contrast, during the Ipswich serial murders, Steve Wright was able to murder five women over a much shorter period. This is despite the fact that Ipswich had a relatively small red light district-wright lived in the middle of it-and only a handful of prostitutes. Contrast that with the multitude of women who were soliciting throughout the Whitechapel area in 1888.

And, of course, the police force of 1888 didn't have the advantage of well lit streets, police patrol cars, police radios, mobile phones and modern forensic techniques.

[MrBarnett]

Despite the lack of enthusiasm for my analogy, there seems to be evidence that prostitutes might expect to find customers on the street very early in the morning in that particular area. We have the Tabram story, the Nichols story and the Chapman story as just 3 examples of that. We have Mary Ann Cox going out until 3am. All of these cases involved women expecting to meet men outdoors after 2:30am...and in Chapmans case, considerably later.

From the Star on Oct 12th, 1888; "Superintendent Thoms, of the C division (in which the Haymarket is) states that after the public-houses are closed at half-past twelve some 20,000 persons are brought into the streets and are subject to police control. A large proportion, chiefly young men of all grades of society, remain to promenade, and as a consequence prostitutes from various parts are present also."

Without beating this small point to death, I believe my statement that there were still many people out in the streets in the early morning hours stands on its own merit. Of course there were less than during the daylight hours, or even earlier in the evening. But these were not deserted streets in the wee hours..as is alluded to about Berner Street on that particular night before 1am.

And for the record I am familiar with Dickens stories....(although not from the exact same period), and I think the Poverty Map is more useful myself.

Cheers

In the context of this thread, the number of people on the streets is crucial. I think Berners Street actually supports my suggestion that between 1 and 4, say, the streets were very quiet. Stride was killed shortly after the pubs had closed and there were still a number of people around.

The poverty map shows the economic status of the residents of streets/individual buildings. It doesn't cover the homeless.

Cheers,

MrB

[Fisherman]

Despite the lack of enthusiasm for my analogy, there seems to be evidence that prostitutes might expect to find customers on the street very early in the morning in that particular area. We have the Tabram story, the Nichols story and the Chapman story as just 3 examples of that. We have Mary Ann Cox going out until 3am. All of these cases involved women expecting to meet men outdoors after 2:30am...and in Chapmans case, considerably later.

From the Star on Oct 12th, 1888; "Superintendent Thoms, of the C division (in which the Haymarket is) states that after the public-houses are closed at half-past twelve some 20,000 persons are brought into the streets and are subject to police control. A large proportion, chiefly young men of all grades of society, remain to promenade, and as a consequence prostitutes from various parts are present also."

Without beating this small point to death, I believe my statement that there were still many people out in the streets in the early morning hours stands on its own merit. Of course there were less than during the daylight hours, or even earlier in the evening. But these were not deserted streets in the wee hours..as is alluded to about Berner Street on that particular night before 1am.

And for the record I am familiar with Dickens stories....(although not from the exact same period), and I think the Poverty Map is more useful myself.

Cheers

When we speak about for example Buck´s Row at around 3.30-3.40 on the murder night, and about Dorset Street at about 2.00-2.45 on the night when Hutchinson was there, the evidence tells a different story.

Charles Lechmere and Robert Paul did not meet a living soul up to the point when they met in Buck´s Row. And Lechmere had walked a number of streets for a time of around six or seven minutes at that stage. There was nobody to be seen. Those streets were totally deserted.
John Neil corroborated what the carmen were saying by adding that he had not seen anybody in the vicinity on the round when he found Nichols - or on the round before that.

George Hutchinson saw a PC in an adjoining street and a lodger in Dorset Street, that was all. And he stood around for 45 minutes, justaboutish, outside Kellys room.

At those stages, the people who left the pubs had apparently left the streets too.

I think the picture of an East End that never slept is wrong. Clearly it did sleep in the small hours. There would have been prostitution traffick to some extent in some haunts, but the average small back street was by and large deserted at the hours we are speaking of.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Varqm]

It was so so safe that he proved it at least 4 times. There is nothing like proof,
we could only speculate. A pickpocket can steal people's wallet while they're awake and up and about,right in their back even if there's lots of people around, even in a bus.How much more if they were sleeping.

[Michael W Richards]

Despite the lack of enthusiasm for my analogy, there seems to be evidence that prostitutes might expect to find customers on the street very early in the morning in that particular area. We have the Tabram story, the Nichols story and the Chapman story as just 3 examples of that. We have Mary Ann Cox going out until 3am. All of these cases involved women expecting to meet men outdoors after 2:30am...and in Chapmans case, considerably later.

From the Star on Oct 12th, 1888; "Superintendent Thoms, of the C division (in which the Haymarket is) states that after the public-houses are closed at half-past twelve some 20,000 persons are brought into the streets and are subject to police control. A large proportion, chiefly young men of all grades of society, remain to promenade, and as a consequence prostitutes from various parts are present also."

Without beating this small point to death, I believe my statement that there were still many people out in the streets in the early morning hours stands on its own merit. Of course there were less than during the daylight hours, or even earlier in the evening. But these were not deserted streets in the wee hours..as is alluded to about Berner Street on that particular night before 1am.

And for the record I am familiar with Dickens stories....(although not from the exact same period), and I think the Poverty Map is more useful myself.

Cheers

[Fisherman]

Have you read the essay Night Walks by Charles Dickens? It describes just how London settled down to sleep. Fitfully at first with the last few drunks disturbing the silence, but eventually the streets were largely empty apart from the occasional policeman. On balance I would trust Dickens's description over the director of From Hell.
Cheers,

MrB

Having noticed how Eddowes is still alive to have a look at her own excised kidney in "From Hell", I very much agree - Dickens will be the better guide.

All the best,
Fisherman

[fraxinus]

How safe?

If JTR was not from Whitechapel he would I believe ask each victim where they could go for uninterrupted sex.
We today might not think these sites were safe.
If the victims believed the sex was only going to last short term (depending on what type of sex he had asked for) then they knew that the prospective sights they chose were safe enough.

[John G]

Michael,

While there was commercial activity I am sure the homeless would be on the prowl in search of whatever they could pick up. But once the pubs and shops had closed what would be the point of wandering aimlessly through deserted streets?

Why would they behave any differently from the homeless today? Like anyone else they need sleep

Have you read the essay Night Walks by Charles Dickens? It describes just how London settled down to sleep. Fitfully at first with the last few drunks disturbing the silence, but eventually the streets were largely empty apart from the occasional policeman. On balance I would trust Dickens's description over the director of From Hell.



Cheers,

MrB

Hello,

Yes, I think what is particularly interesting about the Berner Street location is, based on the empirical evidence, just how quiet it seemed to be at 1:00 am. For instance, Mrs Mortimer claimed to be standing on her doorstep for much of the period between 12:30 and 1:00am and only saw one person- Leon Goldstein.

Perhaps even more revealing is that, following the discovery of the body, Diemshitz and Kozebrodsky ran up the street shouting "police and murder" and attracted the attention of just one person- Edward Spooner. Meanwhile, Morris Eagle ran off in the opposite direction shouting "police" and returned to the passageway with two police officers, but does not seem to have attracted anyone else's attention.

Frankly, if the locality was teaming with people they didn't seem to be unduly concerned!

Cheers,

John

[MrBarnett]

No Im not...what Im suggesting is that the term "quiet" needs to be expanded on, because the amount of people still on the streets during those times was in modern terms, still substantial.

Not that I recommend the entire movie or premise, but I think the slow pan up the ally at the beginning of From Hell.... behind the homeless man... captures what I believe was the milling that would be familiar to LVP poverty regions of London.

Cheers

Michael,

While there was commercial activity I am sure the homeless would be on the prowl in search of whatever they could pick up. But once the pubs and shops had closed what would be the point of wandering aimlessly through deserted streets?

Why would they behave any differently from the homeless today? Like anyone else they need sleep

Have you read the essay Night Walks by Charles Dickens? It describes just how London settled down to sleep. Fitfully at first with the last few drunks disturbing the silence, but eventually the streets were largely empty apart from the occasional policeman. On balance I would trust Dickens's description over the director of From Hell.

Cheers,

MrB

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

Are you really suggesting that the early hours of the morning were not the quietest?

MrB

No Im not...what Im suggesting is that the term "quiet" needs to be expanded on, because the amount of people still on the streets during those times was in modern terms, still substantial.

Not that I recommend the entire movie or premise, but I think the slow pan up the ally at the beginning of From Hell.... behind the homeless man... captures what I believe was the milling that would be familiar to LVP poverty regions of London.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

I think that 15 minutes is a bit wide.

Edward Spooner is clearly even further out than that...I am reminded of:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjHlFPTwVk

All the best

Dave

[GUT]

For me, if I use Occam's Razor, it's to say that the idea of time was more relative than it is now.
I give every witness a margin of error of at least 15 minutes. Because I'm sure there wasn't a single clock in Whitechapel that had the same time.

I think that 15 minutes is a bit wide.

Public clocks, churches etc, were [at least in some areas] set multiple times a day, and were set to other local clocks.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hello c.d.,


I would take an Occam's Razor approach. The simpler conclusion is that Schwartz made the same mistake as Edward Spooner and Fanny Mortimer by getting the time mixed up. That means that he witnessed Stride being murdered, at around 1:00am, by B.S man, i.e. just after Mrs Mortimer went indoors and just before the arrival of Louis D with his pony and cart.

Nonetheless, I accept that this far from being the only possibility!

Best wishes,

John

For me, if I use Occam's Razor, it's to say that the idea of time was more relative than it is now.
I give every witness a margin of error of at least 15 minutes. Because I'm sure there wasn't a single clock in Whitechapel that had the same time.

[Rosella]

Or the woman wasn't Stride at all, and in fact it could have been a domestic dispute. Schwartz was too frightened, naturally, to go back and look, but the man and the woman involved may have both departed afterwards in the opposite direction to Mrs Mortimer's house.

In almost all Victorian murders in workingclass districts it must have been a nightmare for police to fix any precise timeline. Hardly anyone possessed watches, (including police constables), and clocks in shops like jewellers, tobacconists etc could have been inaccurate. The same goes more or less for church clocks.

[John G]

Timeline

Hello John G,

I think that even if technically the B.S. man assaulted or attacked Stride as you say even if a PC had intervened I think that if the B.S. man had a reasonably believable story, i.e., "I told her to move on and she started to mouth off to me so I gave her a little shove and I guess I might have pushed a little too hard", I think the PC would have simply said move on and don't let it happen again.

The moral of the story to me is to view the whole B.S. man in exactly the terms that Schwartz uses to describe it as opposed to giving it much more importance in light of what happened shortly after. That is why words like "attacked" and "assaulted" are so heavily loaded in this instance.

c.d.

Hello c.d.,

I think it might be useful to consider the timeline leading up to the discovery of Stride's body. Thus, Louis D stated that the time on the clock outside the tobacco shop on Commercial Road was 1:00am or a minute or two after. Therefore we can postulate that he arrived at the club around 1:02 to 1:04am where he discovered Stride's body. I would also argue that Stride must have been killed around this time because blood was still trickling from her neck and her body was still warm when checked by Edward Spooner shortly afterwards.

Meanwhile, Mrs Mortimer stated that she heard a pony and cart- presumably Louis D- about 4 minutes after she went indoors. She also said that she had been outside for approximately 10 minutes, suggesting that she had been at her door either between 12:48 and 12:58 or 12:50 and 1:00 depending on Louis D's arrival time.

Of course, this might explain why she didn't see the altercation witnessed by Schwartz and Pipeman, but there are still problems with accepting Schwartz's time of 12:45.

Firstly, it is clearly a significant coincidence that Stride would be involved in an altercation by 2 differently men, or the same man twice, on more or less exactly the same spot, within the space of just 15 minutes. Secondly, where did Stride go to during the intervening period? If she was loitering near the club during this period she should have been seen by Fanny Mortimer and possibly Leon Goldstein. Thirdly, having been involved in an earlier altercation why did she return to the same spot about 15 minutes later? Fourthly, James Brown claimed to have seen a man with someone he believed was Stride at 12:45, which clearly contradicts Schwartz's account because she couldn't have been in two places at the same time.

I would take an Occam's Razor approach. The simpler conclusion is that Schwartz made the same mistake as Edward Spooner and Fanny Mortimer by getting the time mixed up. That means that he witnessed Stride being murdered, at around 1:00am, by B.S man, i.e. just after Mrs Mortimer went indoors and just before the arrival of Louis D with his pony and cart.

Nonetheless, I accept that this far from being the only possibility!

Best wishes,

John