How "safe" were the respective murder sites?

[MrBarnett]

No Im not...what Im suggesting is that the term "quiet" needs to be expanded on, because the amount of people still on the streets during those times was in modern terms, still substantial.

Not that I recommend the entire movie or premise, but I think the slow pan up the ally at the beginning of From Hell.... behind the homeless man... captures what I believe was the milling that would be familiar to LVP poverty regions of London.

Cheers

Michael,

While there was commercial activity I am sure the homeless would be on the prowl in search of whatever they could pick up. But once the pubs and shops had closed what would be the point of wandering aimlessly through deserted streets?

Why would they behave any differently from the homeless today? Like anyone else they need sleep

Have you read the essay Night Walks by Charles Dickens? It describes just how London settled down to sleep. Fitfully at first with the last few drunks disturbing the silence, but eventually the streets were largely empty apart from the occasional policeman. On balance I would trust Dickens's description over the director of From Hell.

Cheers,

MrB

[John G]

Michael,

While there was commercial activity I am sure the homeless would be on the prowl in search of whatever they could pick up. But once the pubs and shops had closed what would be the point of wandering aimlessly through deserted streets?

Why would they behave any differently from the homeless today? Like anyone else they need sleep

Have you read the essay Night Walks by Charles Dickens? It describes just how London settled down to sleep. Fitfully at first with the last few drunks disturbing the silence, but eventually the streets were largely empty apart from the occasional policeman. On balance I would trust Dickens's description over the director of From Hell.



Cheers,

MrB

Hello,

Yes, I think what is particularly interesting about the Berner Street location is, based on the empirical evidence, just how quiet it seemed to be at 1:00 am. For instance, Mrs Mortimer claimed to be standing on her doorstep for much of the period between 12:30 and 1:00am and only saw one person- Leon Goldstein.

Perhaps even more revealing is that, following the discovery of the body, Diemshitz and Kozebrodsky ran up the street shouting "police and murder" and attracted the attention of just one person- Edward Spooner. Meanwhile, Morris Eagle ran off in the opposite direction shouting "police" and returned to the passageway with two police officers, but does not seem to have attracted anyone else's attention.

Frankly, if the locality was teaming with people they didn't seem to be unduly concerned!

Cheers,

John

[fraxinus]

How safe?

If JTR was not from Whitechapel he would I believe ask each victim where they could go for uninterrupted sex.
We today might not think these sites were safe.
If the victims believed the sex was only going to last short term (depending on what type of sex he had asked for) then they knew that the prospective sights they chose were safe enough.

[Fisherman]

Have you read the essay Night Walks by Charles Dickens? It describes just how London settled down to sleep. Fitfully at first with the last few drunks disturbing the silence, but eventually the streets were largely empty apart from the occasional policeman. On balance I would trust Dickens's description over the director of From Hell.
Cheers,

MrB

Having noticed how Eddowes is still alive to have a look at her own excised kidney in "From Hell", I very much agree - Dickens will be the better guide.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Michael W Richards]

Despite the lack of enthusiasm for my analogy, there seems to be evidence that prostitutes might expect to find customers on the street very early in the morning in that particular area. We have the Tabram story, the Nichols story and the Chapman story as just 3 examples of that. We have Mary Ann Cox going out until 3am. All of these cases involved women expecting to meet men outdoors after 2:30am...and in Chapmans case, considerably later.

From the Star on Oct 12th, 1888; "Superintendent Thoms, of the C division (in which the Haymarket is) states that after the public-houses are closed at half-past twelve some 20,000 persons are brought into the streets and are subject to police control. A large proportion, chiefly young men of all grades of society, remain to promenade, and as a consequence prostitutes from various parts are present also."

Without beating this small point to death, I believe my statement that there were still many people out in the streets in the early morning hours stands on its own merit. Of course there were less than during the daylight hours, or even earlier in the evening. But these were not deserted streets in the wee hours..as is alluded to about Berner Street on that particular night before 1am.

And for the record I am familiar with Dickens stories....(although not from the exact same period), and I think the Poverty Map is more useful myself.

Cheers

[Varqm]

It was so so safe that he proved it at least 4 times. There is nothing like proof,
we could only speculate. A pickpocket can steal people's wallet while they're awake and up and about,right in their back even if there's lots of people around, even in a bus.How much more if they were sleeping.

[Fisherman]

Despite the lack of enthusiasm for my analogy, there seems to be evidence that prostitutes might expect to find customers on the street very early in the morning in that particular area. We have the Tabram story, the Nichols story and the Chapman story as just 3 examples of that. We have Mary Ann Cox going out until 3am. All of these cases involved women expecting to meet men outdoors after 2:30am...and in Chapmans case, considerably later.

From the Star on Oct 12th, 1888; "Superintendent Thoms, of the C division (in which the Haymarket is) states that after the public-houses are closed at half-past twelve some 20,000 persons are brought into the streets and are subject to police control. A large proportion, chiefly young men of all grades of society, remain to promenade, and as a consequence prostitutes from various parts are present also."

Without beating this small point to death, I believe my statement that there were still many people out in the streets in the early morning hours stands on its own merit. Of course there were less than during the daylight hours, or even earlier in the evening. But these were not deserted streets in the wee hours..as is alluded to about Berner Street on that particular night before 1am.

And for the record I am familiar with Dickens stories....(although not from the exact same period), and I think the Poverty Map is more useful myself.

Cheers

When we speak about for example Buck´s Row at around 3.30-3.40 on the murder night, and about Dorset Street at about 2.00-2.45 on the night when Hutchinson was there, the evidence tells a different story.

Charles Lechmere and Robert Paul did not meet a living soul up to the point when they met in Buck´s Row. And Lechmere had walked a number of streets for a time of around six or seven minutes at that stage. There was nobody to be seen. Those streets were totally deserted.
John Neil corroborated what the carmen were saying by adding that he had not seen anybody in the vicinity on the round when he found Nichols - or on the round before that.

George Hutchinson saw a PC in an adjoining street and a lodger in Dorset Street, that was all. And he stood around for 45 minutes, justaboutish, outside Kellys room.

At those stages, the people who left the pubs had apparently left the streets too.

I think the picture of an East End that never slept is wrong. Clearly it did sleep in the small hours. There would have been prostitution traffick to some extent in some haunts, but the average small back street was by and large deserted at the hours we are speaking of.

All the best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Despite the lack of enthusiasm for my analogy, there seems to be evidence that prostitutes might expect to find customers on the street very early in the morning in that particular area. We have the Tabram story, the Nichols story and the Chapman story as just 3 examples of that. We have Mary Ann Cox going out until 3am. All of these cases involved women expecting to meet men outdoors after 2:30am...and in Chapmans case, considerably later.

From the Star on Oct 12th, 1888; "Superintendent Thoms, of the C division (in which the Haymarket is) states that after the public-houses are closed at half-past twelve some 20,000 persons are brought into the streets and are subject to police control. A large proportion, chiefly young men of all grades of society, remain to promenade, and as a consequence prostitutes from various parts are present also."

Without beating this small point to death, I believe my statement that there were still many people out in the streets in the early morning hours stands on its own merit. Of course there were less than during the daylight hours, or even earlier in the evening. But these were not deserted streets in the wee hours..as is alluded to about Berner Street on that particular night before 1am.

And for the record I am familiar with Dickens stories....(although not from the exact same period), and I think the Poverty Map is more useful myself.

Cheers

In the context of this thread, the number of people on the streets is crucial. I think Berners Street actually supports my suggestion that between 1 and 4, say, the streets were very quiet. Stride was killed shortly after the pubs had closed and there were still a number of people around.

The poverty map shows the economic status of the residents of streets/individual buildings. It doesn't cover the homeless.

Cheers,

MrB

[John G]

To my mind. as regards the various murder sites, just about everything was to the killer's advantage. Firstly, much of Whitechapel seems to have been a veritable maze. Inspector Moore, who took over the general investigation from Inspector Abberline, pointed out that at one of the murder locations the police formed a cordon, believing that they had secured the site. However, within a few minutes about 50 people had breached this cordon via two passageways the police couldn't find. He also noted how the locals tended not to lock their doors, meaning that a murderer "just had to lift the latch of the nearest house and walk through it and out the back way."

Secondly, there was the issue of police beats. My understanding is that beat officers had to stick to a rigid pattern, so that their sergeant would know where to find them at any particular time. But, of course, this would work to the advantage of any killer that chose to familiarize themselves with the beats of the local officers.

Thirdly, there was the poor lighting conditions throughout much of Whitechapel. For instance, at Dutfield's Yard it was so dark that Diemshutz originally thought that he'd been obstructed by heap of dirt. Even on closer inspection, and after he'd lit a match, he mistook Stride for his own wife! He only realized his mistake after he entered the club and discovered that his wife was very much alive.

Fourthly, there was the inclinations of locals not to get involved. Cries of "murder!" were regularly ignored at Miller's Court because they were considered commonplace. And, as I noted in an earlier post, this seems to have been pretty much the situation at Berner Street as well.

Fifthly, even busy streets could work to the murderer's advantage because he could simply merge with the crowds- providing he wasn't wearing a leather apron and carrying a bloody knife and a Gladstone bag, of course!

In contrast, during the Ipswich serial murders, Steve Wright was able to murder five women over a much shorter period. This is despite the fact that Ipswich had a relatively small red light district-wright lived in the middle of it-and only a handful of prostitutes. Contrast that with the multitude of women who were soliciting throughout the Whitechapel area in 1888.

And, of course, the police force of 1888 didn't have the advantage of well lit streets, police patrol cars, police radios, mobile phones and modern forensic techniques.

[Michael W Richards]

In the context of this thread, the number of people on the streets is crucial. I think Berners Street actually supports my suggestion that between 1 and 4, say, the streets were very quiet. Stride was killed shortly after the pubs had closed and there were still a number of people around.

The poverty map shows the economic status of the residents of streets/individual buildings. It doesn't cover the homeless.

Cheers,

MrB

Well I suppose that means you don't believe Israel Schwartz's story then, because he adds himself and 2 other people to the same street that the young couple was seen on. Hardly deserted.

Truth is I don't believe Israel myself, but the point is moot...Fanny says it was deserted except for the young couple, but if Israel was honest, then you have 5 people out on that street during the critical times. And really, this murder is so early that its hardly the best choice for an example.

I mentioned the Poverty Maps because they show you where the poorest people in a census were located, the point was of course to illustrate that this was a ghetto. Ghettos have transients, they have residents, and they have street people...all of which were in that small square mile, and its a fact that there was not enough room inside for everyone,..particularly the ones that didn't have a cent to their names.

We know that some landlords began to let women without money stay for a night indoors in the midst of the murders, but that wasn't a policy or their good hearted nature, it was a measure to prevent them being seem as the cause for women to be out at all hours and therefore left for Jack to kill. Before that Fall women and men were regularly denied lodging because of money, and Annie Chapmans story and Polly Nichols story both support that fact. 200 brothels in London had been recently shut down by a zealous do-gooder, where do you think all those women went?

I tried not to belabour what seems to me to be a small but undeniable fact, but the persistent resistance to those facts necessitated another go at it.

Cheers

[Rosella]

There is a middle ground, though, between streets teeming with people and completely deserted. There were contemporary observations that at the height of the terror, particularly after the double event, that darker side streets were less frequented at night.

Gradually confidence returned and so, to a certain extent, did the inhabitants, who started venturing out again at night. These included the women who had to make a living or else they would starve. That doesn't mean that, especially as winter advanced, ill-lit side streets would necessarily be crowded with people.

Surely some of the brothel workers at least would have drifted to nearby districts, especially while the scare was on.

[Michael W Richards]

There is a middle ground, though, between streets teeming with people and completely deserted. There were contemporary observations that at the height of the terror, particularly after the double event, that darker side streets were less frequented at night.

Gradually confidence returned and so, to a certain extent, did the inhabitants, who started venturing out again at night. These included the women who had to make a living or else they would starve. That doesn't mean that, especially as winter advanced, ill-lit side streets would necessarily be crowded with people.

Surely some of the brothel workers at least would have drifted to nearby districts, especially while the scare was on.

It was reported that the streets returned to the average traffic amounts shortly after a Ripper killing, lending credence to the suggestion that they were forced by circumstances to work in streets where a killer, or killers, were on the loose. Yes they could have changed districts, but how well would a shabbily dressed homeless woman who likely bathed "French" style if at all....(my grandmother from Clapham Common used to refer to facecloth washing as "whores bathing" )....do in the more upscale neighborhoods?

Cheers

[MrBarnett]

Despite the lack of enthusiasm for my analogy, there seems to be evidence that prostitutes might expect to find customers on the street very early in the morning in that particular area. We have the Tabram story, the Nichols story and the Chapman story as just 3 examples of that. We have Mary Ann Cox going out until 3am. All of these cases involved women expecting to meet men outdoors after 2:30am...and in Chapmans case, considerably later.

From the Star on Oct 12th, 1888; "Superintendent Thoms, of the C division (in which the Haymarket is) states that after the public-houses are closed at half-past twelve some 20,000 persons are brought into the streets and are subject to police control. A large proportion, chiefly young men of all grades of society, remain to promenade, and as a consequence prostitutes from various parts are present also."

Without beating this small point to death, I believe my statement that there were still many people out in the streets in the early morning hours stands on its own merit. Of course there were less than during the daylight hours, or even earlier in the evening. But these were not deserted streets in the wee hours..as is alluded to about Berner Street on that particular night before 1am.

And for the record I am familiar with Dickens stories....(although not from the exact same period), and I think the Poverty Map is more useful myself.

Cheers

Michael,

What has Haymarket at 12.30 got to do with, say, Bucks Row at 3.45?

In London terms they were polar opposites.

MrB

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

What has Haymarket at 12.30 got to do with, say, Bucks Row at 3.45?

In London terms they were polar opposites.

MrB

And in which district were the most homeless women? If women were working the streets in some number in any district of London at the time, then the fact that the poorest district had the most homeless should enlighten us somewhat on this point.

Cheers

[Rosella]

I'm sure some of the clientele of Bermondsey, Tower Hamlets, Bethnal Green etc wouldnt object too strongly to women who contented themselves with 'a lick and a promise', (as those sort of washes were referred to by my grandmother!)

What I meant was though, that of course women who lived from hand to mouth were forced out onto the streets every day at all hours. Surely they would be more likely, though, to go and have a drink and try and pick up a client in the more warm and convivial atmosphere of a pub after dark, (once they'd scraped a couple of pennies together for a drink,) rather than trawl the streets in bad weather, anyway. That's my guess anyway.