How "safe" were the respective murder sites?

[Fisherman]

I didn't say that Hanbury Street was sleepy compared to the other venues. I'm saying that Hanbury was decidedly sleepy compared to Berner Street. And I'm not wrong in saying so, for it plainly was.

You have no idea, why not admit that?

You donīt know how populated either street was. Berner Street could well have been totally empty but for Stride as the killer entered it, killed her and left.

Hanbury Street could have had a number of people extiting their doors - like Cadosch - and leaving for their jobs at roughly around 5.30.

What we donīt know, we should not postulate as facts. What we do know is for example that Mrs Long was on her way to the market. Would it be reasonable to think that other people were too? What was it she said about that couple, discussing with the coroner:
Was it not an unusual thing to see a man and a woman standing there talking? - Oh no. I see lots of them standing there in the morning.
[Coroner] At that hour of the day? - Yes; that is why I did not take much notice of them.

So, in Elizabeth Longīs universe, there were lots of couples standing around in Hanbury Street around 5.30 in the mornings. Normally. She was used to it, it was how she looked upon the street.

So what we have here is a possibility that Berner Street was empty when the killer was there but for Stride and that Hanbury Street was lively with people at around 5.30 - not that the killer was there at that stage, but anyhow ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Not likely. It was next to a club-house with men singing inside, in the middle of a populated street, around chucking-out time.

Once again, Gareth:

1. It was next to a club-house with men singin inside - but it wasnīt IN the club-house.

2. It was not in the middle of a populated street - it led off the street.

3. It was around chucking-out time - but why would the ones chucked out continue the merriments inside Dutfields Yard?

Any person who was not aquainted with Berner Street and who sought seclusion there, would be able to see that there was a pitch-dark yard alongside the street (not in the middle of it), with gates carrying the text "W. Hindley, Sack Manufacturer and A. Dutfield, Van and Cart Builder".

What conclusions would be drawn from such a thing?

Perhaps "Yikes, that has to be a yard in which people live and where clubbers from the adjacent house pop in and out"?

Or maybe "Hey, hereīs a deserted working yard after working hours with nobody at all inside?"

I know which of the two suggestions I would have gone for.

In this discussion, it is immaterial to me that there WERE people living in the yard, and that there WAS a club door inside it. Itīs all about first impressions here, Gareth, and that first impression would have been that there was a dark, secluded place on offer in Berner Street that would seemingly be a grand place to kill undetected in: Dutfields Yard.

If you canīt take that on board, then I fail to see what more I can possibly do about it.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Describing Hanbury Street as sleepy relative to the other venues is wrong. Thatīs what Iīm saying.

I didn't say that Hanbury Street was sleepy compared to the other venues. I'm saying that Hanbury was decidedly sleepy compared to Berner Street. And I'm not wrong in saying so, for it plainly was.

[Sam Flynn]

... but the killer could well have reasoned that it WAS secluded.

Not likely. It was next to a club-house with men singing inside, in the middle of a populated street, around chucking-out time.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

The compulsive detective story reader in me want to scream: "what about the pipe man?!?"

John G: yes, absolutely possible. We can't pretend to know the mental state of the assassin.

[John G]

My only problem with the man assaulting Stride in the street being JtR is the fact that Whitechapel was going already on high alert with JtR. Stride yelled, but not very loudly. She just had to scream "Ripper" and the man would have run for his life.

It does also explain why JtR couldn't rely on very secluded place close to his hunting grounds; they were probably under surveillance.

He had to take more risks in two ways:
-He had to go farther than his original intent.
-He had to go earlier in the night.

Yes, I agree that an increased police presence would have forced him to adapt his behavior. However, in relation to the assault witnessed by Schwartz, I think it possible that he simply lost his composure, perhaps frustrated by Stride's lack of co-operation, i.e she probably wasn't soliciting that night.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hello Sir John.

"She just had to scream "Ripper" and the man would have run for his life."

Permit a correction. The "Ripper" at that point had never been heard of. Moreover, it was nearly 3 weeks since "Leather Apron" had struck.

Cheers.
LC

You're absolutely right about "Ripper".
Nevertheless, the three week period, in my opinion, would also affect the situation, but things were far from back to normal, if only taking into account the number of police officer now involved.

[lynn cates]

nomenclature

Hello Sir John.

"She just had to scream "Ripper" and the man would have run for his life."

Permit a correction. The "Ripper" at that point had never been heard of. Moreover, it was nearly 3 weeks since "Leather Apron" had struck.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

However, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "expertly"!

...or perhaps "patience"?

[John G]

It certainly wasn't secluded, John - not by any stretch of the imagination.

Are, that's why I introduced a qualification: "secluded to that extent". To my mind much off the yard must have been cloaked in almost total darkness. That would explain why Lave struggled to find his way back into the club, or even find the door, and why Diemschutz originally mistook Stride's body for a heap of dirt. Of course, I'm not suggesting that the location was ideal- but then neither was Mitre Square or Hanbury Street. However, if the killer was forced to improvise after becoming frustrated, i.e. because of Stride's lack of cooperation, I don't think it was too bad a choice, especially for a killer willing to take risks or brimming with overconfidence after previous successors.

Best wishes,

John

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Is it therefore possible that, in the intervening 15 minutes, her killer was trying to persuade her to go with him to a more secluded location that he had selected? If so, I would speculate that, increasingly frustrated, his patients ran out and that resulted in the altercation/assault witnessed by Schwartz. And if he was the same man who killed Nicholls and Chapman, he might have become overconfident, and prone to riskier behavior as a result of those earlier successors.

My only problem with the man assaulting Stride in the street being JtR is the fact that Whitechapel was going already on high alert with JtR. Stride yelled, but not very loudly. She just had to scream "Ripper" and the man would have run for his life.

It does also explain why JtR couldn't rely on very secluded place close to his hunting grounds; they were probably under surveillance.

He had to take more risks in two ways:
-He had to go farther than his original intent.
-He had to go earlier in the night.

[Fisherman]

It certainly wasn't secluded, John - not by any stretch of the imagination.

... but the killer could well have reasoned that it WAS secluded. And that is all-important.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: They were beginning to rise (cf. Davis and Cadoche), and there were only a few cart-drivers somewhere down the street when Davis ran out to get help. It was sleepy enough, alright.

They were beginning to rise, yes. In the other venues they were not. Describing Hanbury Street as sleepy relative to the other venues is wrong. Thatīs what Iīm saying.

The best,
Fisherman

[John G]

Hi John G

You're surely not propounding the "Ripper as a medical man" theory are you?

All the best

Dave

Wouldn't dream of it! Okay, my prime suspect is Dr Rees Llewellyn, but I thought I was being very objective- at least I didn't mention Dr Phillips excellent/inspired professional opinion that Chapman's killer had anatomical knowledge and a degree of surgical skill! However, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "expertly"!

Cheers,

John

[Sam Flynn]

It was very dark, and therefore secluded to that extent

It certainly wasn't secluded, John - not by any stretch of the imagination.