Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

rookie the evidence points to stride being in the company of one man, described as wearing a peaked cap, for a while. she was also known to have recently split with her main man and was dolled up for the evening. so it seems she was out looking for a new boyfriend or maybe just a good time and not actively prostituting.

I bet she was having a ripper of a time standing in that gateway. Why would she be looking for a new boyfriend there, rather than in a pub or at least on a main road?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi c.d.,

This is the only way that I could see the Ripper as the murderer: that his desire to kill was just too strong, despite the risk he saw with the club yard. But, to me, that wouldn’t fit very well either, as my view is that his driving force was his desire to mutilate, not to just kill. But it could have been a matter of something like: oh, the hell with it, I’ll just settle for killing this one, then and find myself another one to mutilate.


I certainly agree that circumstances from murder to murder would not have been the same, and in part also his thoughts and emotions, but I don’t think his ultimate desire differed between one murder and the next. Of course, we might argue about what his ultimate desire would have been or how strong it would have been, but that would have been, basically, the same with every murder.


The best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

It’s the location that pushes me away from Stride being a ripper victim but it’s certainly not something that I’d bet my house on; like many things in this case. It’s possible that he tried to persuade her to go to a more private spot and maybe something that she said in order to be rid of him triggered him into reacting? Maybe she said something like “you’re probably the ripper” or “why would I go with someone like you” or something similar and he suddenly thought that here’s a woman who could potentially ID him? We would also have to consider that he’d already been seen by Schwartz and Pipeman, but maybe he didn’t think that those two had got a close enough look in the poor light whereas Stride had seen him up close? And what if he’d been a previous client in which case she’d have been an even more dangerous witness?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think it is very far fetched to believe that Pipeman was in any way involved in Stride's murder. It is clear from the information we have that Schwartz felt Pipeman had followed him. That is all we know. To insert him as possibly returning or having planned to meet Stride beforehand is based on absolutely nothing, with all due respect. We could apply such scenarios to absolutely anything.

To a great extent I agree Sunny but even though it may seem unlikely people can get confused and disorientated under stressful conditions. It’s difficult for us to put ourselves completely in their shoes as we calmly look in from the outside.

A lot is made of BS man interaction with Stride. The idea being that the Ripper was so stealthy it appears out of character to have assaulted Stride as he did. I don't see it that way. Firstly, on the evidence we have the Ripper appears to have conversed with Annie Chapman, Mary Kelly and Catherine Eddowes, if we believe the witnesses. These women were desperate and appeared to be conciliatory towards his requests. Eddowes held a hand flirtatiously on his chest, Chapman responds 'yes' to the question, will you? and if we believe Hutchinson he basically charmed Kelly with one liners.

Again, I don’t really disagree. The killer, whoever he was, wasn’t thinking calmly and rationally so it’s impossible to second guess him with any degree of confidence.

Maybe Stride was not so desperate. Maybe she was much less amenable to his request. Maybe she did not respond in the way the Ripper expected and he lashed out. Why did BS man react as he did? We will never know. But a frustration on not being responded to as the Ripper had been by previous victims possibly played a part.

It’s a point I’ve made previously Sunny and again just a while ago on this thread. It’s possible that he intended to take her elsewhere (hence the pulling) but she wasn’t interested. Perhaps she insulted him in some way or he perceived something that she said as an insult and he lashed out. Maybe in that moment he saw her as someone that could ID him that need silencing?

[Abby Normal]

I bet she was having a ripper of a time standing in that gateway. Why would she be looking for a new boyfriend there, rather than in a pub or at least on a main road?

its where she ended up after she was meandering about with peaked cap man and after one last attempt to get her to accompany him somewhere more private he lost his temper and cut her throat. she probably did meet him in a pub or main road.

[c.d.]

Maybe in that moment he saw her as someone that could ID him that need silencing?

ID him as what? An arm puller?

c.d.

[FrankO]

It's the location that pushes me away from Stride being a ripper victim but it’s certainly not something that I’d bet my house on; like many things in this case.

Hi Mike,

I completely agree with you here: the location and/or timing pushes me away from thinking that Stride was a Ripper victim, but nothing is certain.

It's possible that he tried to persuade her to go to a more private spot and maybe something that she said in order to be rid of him triggered him into reacting? Maybe she said something like you're probably the ripper; or why would I go with someone like you?; or something similar

True enough. She may have pissed him off by saying or doing something to the extent that he just wanted to kill her anyway.

But I don't think he needed to worry about her ID'ing him for having done anything that pointed to him being the Ripper, regardless of him being Mr. BS or not. Just as c.d. implies.

Cheers,
Frank

[c.d.]

I completely agree with you here: the location and/or timing pushes me away from thinking that Stride was a Ripper victim, but nothing is certain.

This is a legitimate concern but it seems to be viewing the Ripper as having the mindset of a bank robber not a serial killer. If he made up his mind that he wanted to kill Stride his options were limited. That consideration can't be counted out.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I appreciate your impartiality in discussing the case, Frank. One of the cooler heads on the boards.

c.d.

[Fiver]

I agree with this, however it doesn't explain why Pipeman didn't come forward to the police.

For the Nichols murder, Robert Paul had to be tracked down by the police. PC Thain saw a couple men "down Brady-Street shortly before I was called by Neale." Mulshaw was told of the murder by an unknown man. Mrs Lilley heard two people in Bucks Row around 3:30am. An unknown man passed by shortly after the body was found.

None of them came forward and talked to the police.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I appreciate your impartiality in discussing the case, Frank. One of the cooler heads on the boards.

c.d.

Agreed

[Sunny Delight]

The reason I see Elizabeth Stride as a victim of the Ripper is the throat cutting. Cutting someone's throat- literally to the spine, is such a ferocious thing to do, it is almost unique in the types of murders that occured in Whitechapel at that time. A copycat may try to cut the throat in an ineffective way. An 'ordinary' murder would likely mean stabbing or beating.

I think there is little doubt Stride was a Ripper victim and although some doubt may be ascribed to BS man as the Ripper or even Stride's killer, I think he was both. The Police were convinced she was a victim and they had access to much more information than we do. I trust their judgement on that.

[FrankO]

I completely agree with you here: the location and/or timing pushes me away from thinking that Stride was a Ripper victim, but nothing is certain.

This is a legitimate concern but it seems to be viewing the Ripper as having the mindset of a bank robber not a serial killer. If he made up his mind that he wanted to kill Stride his options were limited. That consideration can't be counted out.

I'm by no means saying that that consideration can be ruled out, c.d.. In fact, I say that nothing is certain, by which I mean exactly what you say. But what do you mean by ‘having the mindset of a bank robber’?

[c.d.]

Hello Frank,

By bank robber I mean considering the location in a completely calm, objective way as a bank robber would do in estimating potential hazards and dangers and the difficulty in escaping a certain location. In other words, passion and desire take a back seat to logistics. That would seem to be the complete opposite of the mindset of a serial killer.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Just to be clear it is entirely possible that other kills might have been planned logically with considerations toward his safety. But even if that were the case, it needn't be set in stone.

I am thinking of BTK who said that he sometimes would see a woman walking down the street who he had never seen before and knew nothing about and decide on the spot I am going to kill her at some point.

So even if the Stride location were unsafe his desire to kill might have overcome common sense. It might have just been this one time.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

its where she ended up after she was meandering about with peaked cap man and after one last attempt to get her to accompany him somewhere more private he lost his temper and cut her throat. she probably did meet him in a pub or main road.

How does that work given that Schwartz said he followed the man down Berner St? Did he leave her and come back? Why would she be conveniently at the gateway when he comes back? If she wanted nothing to do with him, she would get the hell out of the area. You said she was likely not soliciting, so she has no purpose in hanging around.

I think the whole "woman standing in the gateway" thing is a convenient fiction.