Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[FISHY1118]

Indeed

[Herlock Sholmes]

Spooner was on Fairclough St with a lady friend. When Wess went home at about 12:15, he said he saw people on Fairclough St. That was before Spooner was there, so we know there were multiple people in just that street in the hour leading up to the murder.

I think that you’ve misunderstood what Wess said:

[Coroner] Do low women frequent Berner-street? - I have seen men and women standing about and talking to each other in Fairclough-street.

He was talking generally and not specifically about that night.

I believe that award was actually given to Leon Goldstein, and Woolf Wess was on stage to translate his acceptance speech.

Two men totally unimportant to the enquiry who keep getting roped into discussions for some inexplicable reason.

Sound diffracts around corners. At about 12:45, James Brown spots a couple at the board school corner, who are, from the point of view of the Dutfield's Yard gateway, just around the corner. The couple arrived while Brown was in the chandler's shop. They heard nothing unusual.

Again ‘no.’

We don’t know who ‘they’ were. Why didn’t they come forward? If the woman was Stride then the man might have not come forward for obvious reasons. Not-wanting-to-get-involved syndrome.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We should now be at the stage where we are looking at things from the point of view of others, and not just Schwartz.

Elizabeth Stride: How long was I at the gateway before this man came down Berner St?

B.S. Man: How long did I remain taunting and assaulting the woman after that pesky Jew took off, before I finally killed the bitch/walked away?

If you're so confident in Schwartz, why the continual effort to make him the smallest target you can conceive?

What do you mean by ‘smallest target?’ I’m reading the lines whilst you are reading between them to create a mystery. Short incident, not much noise made, no one in the street for that 90 seconds or so….why is that a problem…unless you are scripting a Dan Brown novel and this common sense approach doesn’t work.

Any mystery here is an invention.

[The Rookie Detective]

Mortimer...

(my emphasis in bold)


Abridged press version in 1st person context...

" I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."


Section of Mortimer's 1st person statement...

"I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by."


3rd person press report...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had anyone done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.



Section of Mortimer's 1st person statement...

"I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club house."



Section of Mortimer's statement...

"It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School."


Interesting indeed.

[Jon Guy]

Surely, the most obvious reason for the woman screaming three times, but not very loudly whilst she was been swung around was due to the fact that BS Man was puling her by a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight.

[New Waterloo]

Another thought provoking post by NotBlamed and another valuable observation about the time Wess quotes in the article.

It seems to be a very important article which actually helps more than we would think. I will try to keep my reasoning simple. I struggle sometimes resisting waffle.

Let us assume that there is no conspiracy by members of the club or anyone really and that Wess is telling the story believing it to be true.

I think we could say with certainty that after the murder of Stride many people would be talking to each other regarding the nights events. Wess himself would be talking to fellow members of the club about events.

Somehow either through personal knowledge (witnessing something) or hearing something he has processed/thought about this and concluded in his mind that an incident occurred at about 1245am at the club where the murderer was chased from the scene after being disturbed. This is what the article says. (well not exact words)

My understanding is that Wess was an intelligent literate man who would have listened to his fellow club members and others and formed this opinion. There is no reason for us to start trying to change what he has said. The article seems genuine as it describes the location of the streets very well.

To me this would suggest a couple of things

Wess believes an incident occurred at approximately 1245am.


A) This could be the incident Schwartz witnessed and Stride was killed

Or

B) This could be the incident Schwartz witnessed and where Stride was only assaulted


This does not mean that Stride was not killed closer to 1am. She may have been. But it does mean that if Wess is correct in his timing (and why wouldn't he be as he would have spoken to many about the nights events I am sure) If she was killed just a minute or so before Diemschutz entered the yard then fine but it could mean that it strengthens the likelihood of the Schwarz incident a bit earlier.

Or yes he has got the time wrong, but Wess on the surface and with his background may be more reliable in what he says

Wess has got the time 1245am from somewhere!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Surely, the most obvious reason for the woman screaming three times, but not very loudly whilst she was been swung around was due to the fact that BS Man was puling her by a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight.

Good point Jon.

[Jon Guy]

Good point Jon.

Thanks MB
Also, not forgetting that she also had her windpipe cut completely in two.

[The Rookie Detective]

Berner Street...



This was posted over on Forums back by a member called "SPE" back in 2011.

But I know it's been posted before elsewhere at various times by other members also.


But just for the sake of refreshment;
IF this is indeed Berner Street, then it would be (from left to right)...

number 36 (Fanny's)

number 34

number 32

NARROW ARCHED ALLEYWAY LEADING WEST INTO BACKCHURCH LANE

number 30

STREET LAMP

number 28

number 26 (taller building on far right)


I would suggest that the narrow archway situated between the doors of numbers 30 and 32, could have been a possible escape route for the killer.

It's no more than a "hurried" 10 second walk from the gateway of Duffield's yard to the archway seen in this photo.

The narrow arched alleyway is located directly next to the drain pipe as you look at the photo and is the central of 3 openings. The one on the left is number 30, the one on the right is number 28.

This archway led through into Backchurch Lane and oddly enough would have been a much better kill site for the man who took Stride's life.

It may also be the route that PC Smith could have taken if he wanted to cut through into BackChurch Lane without going back to Commercial Road first.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks MB
Also, not forgetting that she also had her windpipe cut completely in two.

I still think it’s possible that she might have known her eventual killer and didn’t feel that her life was in danger. These women led tough lives which meant that the occasional beating would have been part of the territory.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Berner Street...



This was posted over on Forums back by a member called "SPE" back in 2011.

But I know it's been posted before elsewhere at various times by other members also.


But just for the sake of refreshment;
IF this is indeed Berner Street, then it would be (from left to right)...

number 36 (Fanny's)

number 34

number 32

NARROW ARCHED ALLEYWAY LEADING WEST INTO BACKCHURCH LANE

number 30

STREET LAMP

number 28

number 26 (taller building on far right)


I would suggest that the narrow archway situated between the doors of numbers 30 and 32, could have been a possible escape route for the killer.

It's no more than a "hurried" 10 second walk from the gateway of Duffield's yard to the archway seen in this photo.

The narrow arched alleyway is located directly next to the drain pipe as you look at the photo and is the central of 3 openings. The one on the left is number 30, the one on the right is number 28.

This archway led through into Backchurch Lane and oddly enough would have been a much better kill site for the man who took Stride's life.

It may also be the route that PC Smith could have taken if he wanted to cut through into BackChurch Lane without going back to Commercial Road first.

SPE is Stewart Evans.

The archway led to a square called Batty’s Garden’s but there was a path to Backchurch Lane. Id’ certainly agree that this might have provided an escape route.

[Jon Guy]

I still think it’s possible that she might have known her eventual killer and didn’t feel that her life was in danger. These women led tough lives which meant that the occasional beating would have been part of the territory.

Sorry, I don`t think an intentionally subdued scream was going on here. She was been thrown around when she screamed, and we know someone had pulled her scarf tight.

[Wickerman]

In the Echo, Oct 1, we read:

[I]A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road....

The above is an erroneous interpretation of Diemschutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman, one shouting 'murder' has been assumed to be chasing the other, when in fact they were two men shouting for a policeman.

....and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

This was an assumption due to the fact Diemschutz returned with Spooner, who was not a member of the club.
The storyteller has assumed the two who returned (Diemschutz & Spooner) were the same two who left to give chase.
They were not, Kozebrodski ran to Commercial Rd.

As this event is said to have occurred at about a quarter to one, what do we suppose Wess is actually referring to? The conversation seems to have occurred late in the afternoon of the day of the murder....

The source of the story was someone who thought the time was 12:45, not 1:00 AM.

[Jon Guy]

Sorry, I don`t think an intentionally subdued scream was going on here. She was been thrown around when she screamed, and we know someone had pulled her scarf tight.

Hi HS

To explain my reasoning, Dr Blackwell noted that the scarf had been pulled tight and to the left. His reasoning was that the killer did this to position her neck. However Dr Phillips noted that Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under collar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since. and I have come to a conclusion as to the position of both the murderer and the victim, and I opine that the latter was seized by the shoulders and placed on the ground,

[Wickerman]

Hi HS

To explain my reasoning, Dr Blackwell noted that the scarf had been pulled tight and to the left. His reasoning was that the killer did this to position her neck. However Dr Phillips noted that Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under collar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since. and I have come to a conclusion as to the position of both the murderer and the victim, and I opine that the latter was seized by the shoulders and placed on the ground,

The same pattern of bruises were seen on Chapman.