Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[The Rookie Detective]

Perhaps you've left out the closest, and therefore most important witness, Mrs Diemschitz:

Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. ...
The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard. ...
It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club [Eagle?] had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. ...
I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave.

She did not hear screams of any kind, including not very loud ones.



Mortimer can be delayed coming to her door, but that does not necessarily preclude her from hearing events on the street. Fanny not being able to hear Schwartz and co. when she was inside, is a belief, not a fact.



Furthermore, Pipeman not coming forward or being identified is another element of the story that must be explained away.



It would be interesting to determine the number of club members who show up in records, subsequent to the murder. No such luck with the mysterious Israel Schwartz.



Yes

Excellent post


What i like about Mrs Diemschitz is that her comments corroborate a club member having come through the side door.
This member was of course Eagle

And yet...no sign or mention of Lave

It would appear that Mrs Diemschitz had been making hot refreshments in the kitchen that led out into the yard for at least 20 minutes.

This of course may have been intermittent.

She is in the kitchen when Eagle comes through the side door and unless she covered for him in some capacity, her statement practically rules out Eagle as the killer.

But what about Lave?


Well it seems either...

1 - Lave had gone outside and back inside the club BEFORE the front entrance had been locked, gone as far as the street, ergo, stood at the front entrance, and was seen by nobody.

2 - Lave had come back inside through the side door AFTER the front door was locked and AFTER PC Smith passed, but BEFORE Eagle and BEFORE Mrs Diemschitz was in the kitchen making refreshments for those upstairs.


3 - Lave came back in through the side door AFTER EAGLE but at a point when Mrs Diemschitz had taken some tea upstairs.
From her statement it is clear she was in the kitchen when Eagle came in through the side door circa 12 40am, but was NOT when her husband got back in circa 1am.


4 - Lave lied for whatever reason


The fact that Diemschitz stated he was initially concerned for his wife when he returned and found a body laying in the yard, perhaps indicates he knew she would likely be in the kitchen and therefore within close proximity to the murder site.


It's also interesting that she states the side door was half open. Interesting considering it was a windy night.
One would imagine the door would have been closed, or sturdy enough to not be moved by the wind.
The passageway from the street into the yard ran from East to West with the side door facing South.
The narrow passageway should have acted as a wind tunnel based on the fact it was a windy night.

And yet the "half open" side door neither slammed shut, or flew open.

Either the side door was a heavy door, or the wind direction ran North to South or vice versa, ergo, the direction that Berner Street ran.

But going back to Lave briefly...

Nobody saw him go in or out the club and he claims to have gone back into the club around the same time Eagle did, and yet Mrs Diemschitz makes no mention of Lave.

Why Is that?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We must go with the evidence and statements we have and i would suggest we have lots it just making sense. We will get there if we slow down and think about what people have said, notblamed brings in valuable evidence from Mrs Diemschutz but we musnt jump to conclusions to quickly. She states that she is making tea for those upstairs and that he heard nothing of what went on in the yard. She does not mention that there are several members of the club also downstairs in the front room with front door locked. Did they hear anything. We don't know. Who were these forgotten people. Diemschutz evidences their presence when he announces finding Stride. What does this tell us. This evidence cannot be swept aside. Several members were present downstairs with Mrs Diemschutz.

The quotes of Mrs D. are from the Morning Advertiser, Oct 2. Immediately following is this:

Mila, the servant at the club, strongly corroborates the statement made by her mistress, and is equally convinced there were no sounds coming from the yard between 20 minutes to one and one o'clock.

I think the murder was committed by someone who knew what they were doing, was in the habit of carrying around a large, sharp knife, and was able to kill swiftly while maintaining silence. Jack the Ripper comes to mind.

plans of house would help

There is some discussion of the club internals in this thread - The Nihilist Club ie. Berner Street - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What i like about Mrs Diemschitz is that her comments corroborate a club member having come through the side door.
This member was of course Eagle

And yet...no sign or mention of Lave

It would appear that Mrs Diemschitz had been making hot refreshments in the kitchen that led out into the yard for at least 20 minutes.

This of course may have been intermittent.

She is in the kitchen when Eagle comes through the side door and unless she covered for him in some capacity, her statement practically rules out Eagle as the killer.

But what about Lave?

Lave quoted by the Daily News:

I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

In the estimated 12:30 to 12:40 period, it seems he did not see PC Smith "moving about".

Well it seems either...

1 - Lave had gone outside and back inside the club BEFORE the front entrance had been locked, gone as far as the street, ergo, stood at the front entrance, and was seen by nobody.

2 - Lave had come back inside through the side door AFTER the front door was locked and AFTER PC Smith passed, but BEFORE Eagle and BEFORE Mrs Diemschitz was in the kitchen making refreshments for those upstairs.


3 - Lave came back in through the side door AFTER EAGLE but at a point when Mrs Diemschitz had taken some tea upstairs.
From her statement it is clear she was in the kitchen when Eagle came in through the side door circa 12 40am, but was NOT when her husband got back in circa 1am.


4 - Lave lied for whatever reason

I presume Lave came back in through the side door before Eagle. Press reports state:

Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air, and for five minutes or more he strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

I don't think Lave used the front door - instead he went out and returned in through the side door. As Mrs D's comments regarding a club member entering seem to refer to Eagle, it would seem that Lave was in the yard and observing the street up until just prior to Eagle's return. That would suggest Eagle returned in the 12:40-45 period. It must then be a possibility that the footsteps heard by "a woman who lives two doors from the club" were that of Eagle, as the timings would therefore be coincident.

It's at this point that things start getting difficult, at least for some of us. At about 12:45, James Brown will be walking home and spotting a couple at the board school corner.

It's also interesting that she states the side door was half open. Interesting considering it was a windy night.
One would imagine the door would have been closed, or sturdy enough to not be moved by the wind.
The passageway from the street into the yard ran from East to West with the side door facing South.
The narrow passageway should have acted as a wind tunnel based on the fact it was a windy night.

And yet the "half open" side door neither slammed shut, or flew open.

Either the side door was a heavy door, or the wind direction ran North to South or vice versa, ergo, the direction that Berner Street ran.

Perhaps the door was left half open to let out smoke.

But going back to Lave briefly...

Nobody saw him go in or out the club and he claims to have gone back into the club around the same time Eagle did, and yet Mrs Diemschitz makes no mention of Lave.

Why Is that?

If he were not the last in the door, why mention him? How far back should Mrs Diemschitz go - to the 2nd-last man to enter, 3rd-last, 4th-last? Eagle is mentioned (implicitly) because he did not see or stumble on a body as he made his way up the passage.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Some excellent points as always Herlock.

What I would say regarding why Goldstein doesn't see Mortimer; I believe that's because the footsteps she heard may have been Goldstein, and after she immediately went to her door, she observed him as he walked south past the club.
She observed him AFTER he had passed her door, but before he had got as far as the club.

In other words, his had his back to Mortimer at the moment Mortimer saw him just as he approached the club.

I’d say that’s the likeliest explanation too. But, as we don’t get a transcript of his interview with the police, he may have said that he had seen FM as he’d passed but it just didn't get mentioned.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps you've left out the closest, and therefore most important witness, Mrs Diemschitz:

Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. ...
The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard. ...
It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club [Eagle?] had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. ...
I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave.

She did not hear screams of any kind, including not very loud ones.

That isn’t what she said. She didn’t hear any screams (and she would have expected screams to have been loud) or….sounds of any kind.

She was talking about a murder location just outside of a partially open door that she was fairly close to at the time. We can’t expect her to have picked up every sound from the street. If we could have asked her if she had heard her husband’s cart arrive at the gateway do you think that she’d have said yes?

[Herlock Sholmes]

In coming to that conclusion, you make unjustified assumptions and then assume others agree with those assumptions.

Why didn't Mortimer see Lave at the gateway? Interesting question, given your belief that Mortimer was only ever at her door post-Smith. The question is only valid if Mortimer was at her door on and off, including pre-Smith. The answer is that Lave at the gateway would be 90 degrees to her right, and thus her view of the gateway is obscured by the door frame.

Not seeing the couple and Eagle, at a similar time, is the difference between most and all of the time between 12:30 and 1am.

Why didn't she see James Brown or the couple on the corner? FM: ...I did not notice anything unusual. Their behaviour on the street was not unusual, so they were not mentioned. This has been pointed out many times.

Why didn't she see the Schwartz incident? For the same reason that no one else saw Stride standing in the gateway - she didn't.

I make no assumptions of course. I simply mentioned the witnesses that were around at that period which encompasses times when FM was ‘potentially’ on her doorstep.

I presume that Mortimer was only on her doorstep post-Smith because she herself said this. Why is it ok to second guess FM to keep her ‘in the game?’

My point was simple and obvious…

FM - doesn’t see the Parcelman, Stride, Lave, Eagle and Brown and isn’t clear about when she was or was t on her doorstep - no issue at all

FM - doesn’t see Schwartz, BSMan, Stride and Pipeman - proof that none of these people were there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Joseph Lave


Daily New, Oct 1st.

Joseph Love, a man just arrived in England from the United States, and who is living temporarily at the club until he can find lodgings, says:-I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

He’s in the yard from 12.30 until 12.40.

—————————————-

Evening News, Oct 1st

Our next informant was Joseph Lave, a man just arrived in England from the United States. Lave is now living at the club, till such time as he can find permanent lodgings. What he tells us is this: "I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

He came into the street at 12.30 and was in the street for 30 minutes. He also says that he was in the yard at 12.40.

—————————————

Evening Standard, Oct 1st.

Joseph Lave, an American living temporarily at the club, said - "I was in the Club yard this morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen any body moving about there."

He’s in the yard from 12.30 until 12.40 and also went into the street.

————————————-

Morning Advertiser (London) Oct 1st

A Russian named Joseph Lave - feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual

He went into the yard at around 12.40 for 5 minutes (including the street).

————————————-

The Times, Oct 1st

Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

He went into the yard and the street at around 12.40 for an unspecified period.

————————————-

Woodford Times (Essex) Oct 5th

Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for about five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert-room without having encountered anything unusual

He went into the yard and street at around 12.40 for 5 minutes.

————————————-


The reporting of Lave makes him almost entirely useless as a witness. We haven’t a clue when he went into the yard, where he went, how long he was there or what time he went back inside and yet this is one of the witnesses used to dismiss Schwartz alongside Fanny Mortimer, who is another witness whose movements are a mystery. Do we think that the police would dismiss a witness based on this kind of vagueness?

Well, they interviewed Schwartz and Fanny and Lave and guess what….they believed Schwartz.

[The Rookie Detective]

Joseph Lave


Daily New, Oct 1st.

Joseph Love, a man just arrived in England from the United States, and who is living temporarily at the club until he can find lodgings, says:-I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

He’s in the yard from 12.30 until 12.40.

—————————————-

Evening News, Oct 1st

Our next informant was Joseph Lave, a man just arrived in England from the United States. Lave is now living at the club, till such time as he can find permanent lodgings. What he tells us is this: "I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

He came into the street at 12.30 and was in the street for 30 minutes. He also says that he was in the yard at 12.40.

—————————————

Evening Standard, Oct 1st.

Joseph Lave, an American living temporarily at the club, said - "I was in the Club yard this morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen any body moving about there."

He’s in the yard from 12.30 until 12.40 and also went into the street.

————————————-

Morning Advertiser (London) Oct 1st

A Russian named Joseph Lave - feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual

He went into the yard at around 12.40 for 5 minutes (including the street).

————————————-

The Times, Oct 1st

Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

He went into the yard and the street at around 12.40 for an unspecified period.

————————————-

Woodford Times (Essex) Oct 5th

Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for about five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert-room without having encountered anything unusual

He went into the yard and street at around 12.40 for 5 minutes.

————————————-


The reporting of Lave makes him almost entirely useless as a witness. We haven’t a clue when he went into the yard, where he went, how long he was there or what time he went back inside and yet this is one of the witnesses used to dismiss Schwartz alongside Fanny Mortimer, who is another witness whose movements are a mystery. Do we think that the police would dismiss a witness based on this kind of vagueness?

Well, they interviewed Schwartz and Fanny and Lave and guess what….they believed Schwartz.

Mortimer said the street was quiet

Lave said everything was quiet

Eagle never acknowledged anything that may have been suspicious.

PC Smith saw nothing to alert him

Miss Letchford saw nothing alarming

Mrs Diemschitz heard nothing

A couple standing on the corner heard nothing

The yard door was half open

A window was open


Schwartz said there was an assault in which a woman screamed 3 times, a man shouted an antisemitic slur across the road to him, and then he ran from the scene with another man following him up to a certain point.

How convenient that Stride appears to be the only female murder victim in history to have the capacity and time to produce multiple audible screams, but then choose to not do it loud enough for anyone else to hear her, including a woman sitting a few yards with the door open.

Either she was inexplicably foolish, or it didn't happen in the first place.

And Schwartz's ability to run away as far as the trainline without anyone hearing or seeing him is also quite remarkable.

[Duran duren]

RD, you have basically summed up why I have always paid little regard to most of these "witnesses" regardless which victim we may be speaking of.

[Wickerman]

Joseph Lave

...The reporting of Lave makes him almost entirely useless as a witness.

Which may be why he was not called to the inquest, his contribution was vague at best.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mortimer said the street was quiet

When though? Her vague story tells us little.

Lave said everything was quiet

When though? His vague and contradictory story tells us nothing.

Eagle never acknowledged anything that may have been suspicious.

At 12.40 - why would he have seen anything suspicious before the event occurred?

PC Smith saw nothing to alert him

He’d left the street 10 minutes earlier.

Miss Letchford saw nothing alarming

Letchford said that his sister was on her doorstep at 12.50. Why does he pick 12.50? If that’s the case then she didn’t mention seeing Goldstein so was Fanny lying? Or was Ms Letchford wrong? And if the incident occurred at 12.45 it would have been long over if she came onto her doorstep at 12.50

Mrs Diemschitz heard nothing

She was inside a building, with people around her and men upstairs singing. And like I said early, I bet that she didn’t hear her husbands horse and cart approaching so why should she have heard 3 not very loud screams and the word Lipski being called out.

A couple standing on the corner heard nothing

And it’s deeply suspicious that we ‘can’t find’ Schwartz. Or that Pipeman or Parcelman didn’t come forward. Why didn’t this couple come forward?

The yard door was half open

A window was open


Schwartz said there was an assault in which a woman screamed 3 times, a man shouted an antisemitic slur across the road to him, and then he ran from the scene with another man following him up to a certain point.

Yes, because that’s what happened. That no one saw or heard it is not even remotely surprising.

How convenient that Stride appears to be the only female murder victim in history to have the capacity and time to produce multiple audible screams, but then choose to not do it loud enough for anyone else to hear her, including a woman sitting a few yards with the door open.

So she is the only murder victim in history to have been murdered but not heard?

Either she was inexplicably foolish, or it didn't happen in the first place.

Or… no one heard these not particularly loud noises. Basically you are saying that if a sound is made someone must here it. That nothing goes unheard or unnoticed.

And Schwartz's ability to run away as far as the trainline without anyone hearing or seeing him is also quite remarkable.

When Schwartz ran as far as the train line (and did he run all or part of the way?) it was close to 1.00 in some poorly lit East End backstreets. Why is it surprising that no one saw him? Who was around at that time?

To believe that the Schwartz incident didn’t occur you have to accept two things..

1. The Israel Schwartz would easily have won London’s Stupidest Man 1888 because he places himself at the scene of a murder when he doesn’t have to. And in doing this he puts himself in a position where he’s the only person that the police can actually interview who potential saw Stride being killed. Was he so thick that he didn’t realise that the police could have said “what if this guy killed her but invented another man to throw suspicion away from himself?”

2. That it’s physically impossible for sounds not to travel to certain locations.

[Wickerman]

Mortimer said the street was quiet

Lave said everything was quiet

Eagle never acknowledged anything that may have been suspicious.

PC Smith saw nothing to alert him

Miss Letchford saw nothing alarming

Mrs Diemschitz heard nothing

A couple standing on the corner heard nothing

The yard door was half open

A window was open


Schwartz said there was an assault in which a woman screamed 3 times, a man shouted an antisemitic slur across the road to him, and then he ran from the scene with another man following him up to a certain point.

How convenient that Stride appears to be the only female murder victim in history to have the capacity and time to produce multiple audible screams, but then choose to not do it loud enough for anyone else to hear her, including a woman sitting a few yards with the door open.

Either she was inexplicably foolish, or it didn't happen in the first place.

And Schwartz's ability to run away as far as the trainline without anyone hearing or seeing him is also quite remarkable.

Is someone trying to promote the idea that the assault seen by Schwartz occurred in a different street?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Which may be why he was not called to the inquest, his contribution was vague at best.

True. We just can’t get any valuable information from him Wick. How do we know that the police, after interviewing him, didn’t think “well we can’t believe a word of what this clown is saying.”

[c.d.]

How convenient that Stride appears to be the only female murder victim in history to have the capacity and time to produce multiple audible screams, but then choose to not do it loud enough for anyone else to hear her, including a woman sitting a few yards with the door open.

Either she was inexplicably foolish, or it didn't happen in the first place.

You left out another explanation and probably the most obvious one -- it was simply a bad translation and the "screams" just showed surprise not fear. In other words they were not loud.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

Which may be why he was not called to the inquest, his contribution was vague at best.

I agree, but it's odd that he wasn't called to the inquest when he states he was out in the yard and went as far as the street.
With the front door locked when Eagle returns and Lave mentioning being in the yard, we can be sure that Lave went outside AFTER the front door was locked; which i would imagine was circa 12.30am?

If he was so vague and had physically placed himself as having literally walked past the exact place Stride was murdered; then why didn't he appear at the inquest?

It would seem that because the police INTIALLY believed Schwartz, it would then have shown that Stride must have still been alive when Lave went back into the club circa 12.40am, because she was alive when she was assaulted around 5 minutes later.

Schwartz gives a statement that effectively puts Lave and Parcelman in the clear and to some extent draws attention away from a club member having been involved

If however, the assault never happened, then Parcelman potentially had a little more before he would have needed to have moved from the position he was in when he was seen by PC Smith.


If Parcelman was Lave, then that would explain where Parcelman went.

If Parcelman wasn't Lave, then we have an unidentified man seen with Stride standing on the opposite side of the road and within sightline of Mortimer.

We know that Stride had to have moved by crossing over to the gateway AFTER Eagle walked into the yard and into the side door.

The question is; did Parcelman walk with her?

If he did, he may have been Lave and may or.may not have killed her.

if he didn't kill her, then he walked back into the club and was perhaps deliberately vague because he couldn't admit to having spoken with Stride without having brought suspicion unto himself.

If Parcelman didn't accompany Stride across the road, then where did he go?

if Parcelman left the scene, then he obviously couldn't have been Lave.

Let's also not forget that Parcelman wasn't BS Man


If the Schwartz incident happened then Parcelman has to have either left the scene beforehand, or go into the club; in which case he was Lave.

But if the Schwartz incident didnt happen; then there was more time for Parcelman in general.