Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

No, thats fine Jeff, I'm aware my view is not a strong argument. There's a bit of give & take in all the theories, but Schwartz was focused on the fracas in the gateway so I can forgive him for not seeing a third man in the shadows. He seemed to be more concerned for his own welfare than that of the woman.



I do see the events begin with Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms about 11:00pm, then, with the same man she is walking up Berner Street around 45 minutes later. They buy grapes (in a parcel) from Packers shop, go stand across the road, noticed by PC Smith (Parcel-man & Stride) at about 12:35.
They cross the road to stand in the entrance of the yard when BS-man walks passed and assaults Stride for conducting her business. Schwartz walks passed the altercation and begins to run, BS-man leaves the scene. Parcel-man helps Stride to her feet and takes her deeper into the yard, and swiftly dispatches her.

I don't support the belief that Jack was a blitz-killer. In my view he courted them, he spent time with his victim before he attacked them. It was all part of the thrill for him.

Hi Wickerman,

I can see how things could have gone as you suggest, and in many ways we're not suggesting a great deal of difference. In fact, the main point of difference is whether or not B.S. and Parcel-man are the same person or two different people really. I think in both cases, the incident Schwartz reports would be viewed as c.d. describes, a less intense struggle where Stride falls or trips over more than was violently thrown down, then a short period passes before the fatal assault. In your description, with B.S. moving on and Parcel-man going on to kill her, then perhaps that is more consistent with Parcel-man being JtR. While not impossible in what I describe, I think if B.S. and Parcel-man are the same person, then putting all of Stride's activities together, it feels more like she was killed by someone who knows her and she went out that night to meet them (she was on a date, rather than soliciting). Perhaps he was JtR, and whatever set him off resulting in Stride's death explains the increased furry shown in the Eddowes' case? If he was concerned that Stride may have told people who she was meeting up with that night, he may have left town for a while, only returning after it became clear in the press that wasn't the case? I suppose that could fit either of our suggestions since they aren't really all that different in the broad sense (she's with Parcel-man for an extended time, and Parcel-man kills her; whether or not B.S. is Parcel-man is a detail that, on the whole, doesn't change the bigger picture). As always, there are interesting implications that arise when one starts to consider a given scenario which in an active case suggest further lines of investigation. Most go nowhere of course, like the Lipski search, but sooner or later a lead or idea starts to pay off. Unfortunately, in the JtR case, the ability to follow those leads is long gone and we can only build speculation upon speculation. Maybe that's why it is an interesting case to examine though?

- Jeff

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Wickerman,

I can see how things could have gone as you suggest, and in many ways we're not suggesting a great deal of difference. In fact, the main point of difference is whether or not B.S. and Parcel-man are the same person or two different people really. I think in both cases, the incident Schwartz reports would be viewed as c.d. describes, a less intense struggle where Stride falls or trips over more than was violently thrown down, then a short period passes before the fatal assault. In your description, with B.S. moving on and Parcel-man going on to kill her, then perhaps that is more consistent with Parcel-man being JtR. While not impossible in what I describe, I think if B.S. and Parcel-man are the same person, then putting all of Stride's activities together, it feels more like she was killed by someone who knows her and she went out that night to meet them (she was on a date, rather than soliciting). Perhaps he was JtR, and whatever set him off resulting in Stride's death explains the increased furry shown in the Eddowes' case? If he was concerned that Stride may have told people who she was meeting up with that night, he may have left town for a while, only returning after it became clear in the press that wasn't the case? I suppose that could fit either of our suggestions since they aren't really all that different in the broad sense (she's with Parcel-man for an extended time, and Parcel-man kills her; whether or not B.S. is Parcel-man is a detail that, on the whole, doesn't change the bigger picture). As always, there are interesting implications that arise when one starts to consider a given scenario which in an active case suggest further lines of investigation. Most go nowhere of course, like the Lipski search, but sooner or later a lead or idea starts to pay off. Unfortunately, in the JtR case, the ability to follow those leads is long gone and we can only build speculation upon speculation. Maybe that's why it is an interesting case to examine though?

- Jeff

Speculation upon speculation often leads down rabbit holes however. To add an additional character to what Schwartz saw is very problematic. It just so happens that this man is in the shadows not seen by Schwartz and makes no attempt to intervene or help Stride back up as BS turns towards Schwartz and shouts 'Lipski'. It is the road to nowhere.

Often the most simple answers are the ones which ring true. Schwartz witnesses BS man assault or attack Stride- he does not see anyone else bar Pipeman. We have no confirmation that BS man ever left the scene.The most likely scenario for me is that Israel Schwartz is walking down Berner Street and BS man is involved in a scuffle/attack/assault on Elizabeth Stride just as he says. What exactly was said between the two we will never know but Stride ends up being thrown to the ground. BS man shouts an anti-semitic slur at Schwartz who can't tell if the shout is directed at himself or Pipeman. Either way Schwartz feels scared and quickens his pace. Pipeman either also scared or alternatively suspicious of Schwartz follows him for a short distance before tailing off. We know that Schwartz and Pipeman did not return with a Policeman but BS man in that moment did not. He pulls Stride by the scarf as she is getting up and kills her by cutting her throat- of course JTR's method of killing- before deciding that mutilation is too risky. Maybe he hears a noise from the club or is worried someone is returning with Police. Either way he calmly leaves the scene walking past Fanny Mortimers home and decides to try and find another victim.

Fanny Mortimer who was indoors hears measured footsteps she thinks is a Policeman's pass her home. They aren't though. They are the steps of BS man calmly leaving the scene. She shortly thereafter comes to her door. She does not see anything unusual. She does see one man at this time who ends up being Leon Goldstein- timed around about 12:55am. She does not see anyone else because Stride is already dead and BS man has fled.

There is a couple whom she speaks to afterwards who had been close by but also heard nothing. Possibly this is the couple seen by James Brown as well.

Quite a simple scenario that avoids the speculation upon speculation that deviates from known statements.

[JeffHamm]

Speculation upon speculation often leads down rabbit holes however. To add an additional character to what Schwartz saw is very problematic. It just so happens that this man is in the shadows not seen by Schwartz and makes no attempt to intervene or help Stride back up as BS turns towards Schwartz and shouts 'Lipski'. It is the road to nowhere.

Often the most simple answers are the ones which ring true. Schwartz witnesses BS man assault or attack Stride- he does not see anyone else bar Pipeman. We have no confirmation that BS man ever left the scene.The most likely scenario for me is that Israel Schwartz is walking down Berner Street and BS man is involved in a scuffle/attack/assault on Elizabeth Stride just as he says. What exactly was said between the two we will never know but Stride ends up being thrown to the ground. BS man shouts an anti-semitic slur at Schwartz who can't tell if the shout is directed at himself or Pipeman. Either way Schwartz feels scared and quickens his pace. Pipeman either also scared or alternatively suspicious of Schwartz follows him for a short distance before tailing off. We know that Schwartz and Pipeman did not return with a Policeman but BS man in that moment did not. He pulls Stride by the scarf as she is getting up and kills her by cutting her throat- of course JTR's method of killing- before deciding that mutilation is too risky. Maybe he hears a noise from the club or is worried someone is returning with Police. Either way he calmly leaves the scene walking past Fanny Mortimers home and decides to try and find another victim.

Fanny Mortimer who was indoors hears measured footsteps she thinks is a Policeman's pass her home. They aren't though. They are the steps of BS man calmly leaving the scene. She shortly thereafter comes to her door. She does not see anything unusual. She does see one man at this time who ends up being Leon Goldstein- timed around about 12:55am. She does not see anyone else because Stride is already dead and BS man has fled.

There is a couple whom she speaks to afterwards who had been close by but also heard nothing. Possibly this is the couple seen by James Brown as well.

Quite a simple scenario that avoids the speculation upon speculation that deviates from known statements.

Hi Sunny Delight,

As I've mentioned to Wickerman as well, I shy away from the introduction of Ally-man as an unnecessary increase in complexity, but given the briefness of Schwartz's presence, and as he appears to have fled the area fairly quickly, Wickerman's Ally-man is not entirely impossible and I was just acknowledging that I understood how what he describes could transpire. And while I understand what he's getting at, I think it may be possible to connect B.S. to Parcel-man, in which case, Wickerman's idea and the speculative idea I present, both point to the same person "Parcel-man", only I suggest that B.S. is also Parcel-man while Wickerman has them as two different people - in which case Parcel-man's location needs to be worked out. Wickerman is just suggesting where Parcel-man might have been, hidden from view in the ally. I suggest he was in full view, that B.S. was also Parcel-man, who in turn was the same man seen with Stride, kissing and hugging, both at the Bricklayers Arms and later by Marshall outside of #63 Berner's Street.

As for Fanny, her statements in the press make it quite unclear the time frame in which she's on her doorstep. If the Schwartz events occur before she comes out, then yes, she may have misidentified Stride's killers footsteps as PC Smith's. However, if she goes back inside before the Schwartz event, then she probably did hear PC Smith pass by (around 1:35 I think? meaning after her 10 minutes, she goes inside around 1:45 or only a bit after that, which meansd more time than she realised had transpired between her going inside and her hearing Deimshutz's pony and cart arrive at 1 (in some reports she said it was about 4 minutes after she went inside that she heard the pony and cart). The entire Schwartz event would only require about 90 seconds (the amount of time for Schwartz to walk the length of Berner Street, bit less as he runs part of it), so it could easily occur either side of Fanny's vigil. Add a bit more for B.S. to leave the area, and we're still looking at only about 2 minutes and everyone is out of sight. Personally, I think Stride's killer had left before Deimshutz's arrival, and if he's JtR, then something about the location wasn't right. Either the whole Schwartz event disturbed him, or noise in the club, or it was just too dark/muddy in the ally - basically something wasn't to his liking, but what we may never know. Of course, if B.S. was Stride's killer, and had been her companion for a few hours prior, then he's probably someone she knew, and he may have just gotten lucky that she was included as a victim of JtR. If Stride was planning on meeting someone that night, it appears she did not tell anyone as nobody reveals who she was going to meet, which is a bit of a problem with some of the ideas I've suggested, but perhaps she didn't want Kidney catching wind of anything until she found out how things might go with this fellow?. Mind you, she could have also just met him at the pub and didn't know him prior to that, but some have argued that her behaviour at the lodging house might indicate she was going out on a date.

Anyway, it is all speculation of course, and I may be trying to tie together things that should be kept separate. But if nothing else, I think it shows that it is entirely possible to tie the information together into one single story-line. Whether or not that is worth much we may never know.

- Jeff

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny Delight,

As I've mentioned to Wickerman as well, I shy away from the introduction of Ally-man as an unnecessary increase in complexity, but given the briefness of Schwartz's presence, and as he appears to have fled the area fairly quickly, Wickerman's Ally-man is not entirely impossible and I was just acknowledging that I understood how what he describes could transpire. And while I understand what he's getting at, I think it may be possible to connect B.S. to Parcel-man, in which case, Wickerman's idea and the speculative idea I present, both point to the same person "Parcel-man", only I suggest that B.S. is also Parcel-man while Wickerman has them as two different people - in which case Parcel-man's location needs to be worked out. Wickerman is just suggesting where Parcel-man might have been, hidden from view in the ally. I suggest he was in full view, that B.S. was also Parcel-man, who in turn was the same man seen with Stride, kissing and hugging, both at the Bricklayers Arms and later by Marshall outside of #63 Berner's Street.

As for Fanny, her statements in the press make it quite unclear the time frame in which she's on her doorstep. If the Schwartz events occur before she comes out, then yes, she may have misidentified Stride's killers footsteps as PC Smith's. However, if she goes back inside before the Schwartz event, then she probably did hear PC Smith pass by (around 1:35 I think? meaning after her 10 minutes, she goes inside around 1:45 or only a bit after that, which meansd more time than she realised had transpired between her going inside and her hearing Deimshutz's pony and cart arrive at 1 (in some reports she said it was about 4 minutes after she went inside that she heard the pony and cart). The entire Schwartz event would only require about 90 seconds (the amount of time for Schwartz to walk the length of Berner Street, bit less as he runs part of it), so it could easily occur either side of Fanny's vigil. Add a bit more for B.S. to leave the area, and we're still looking at only about 2 minutes and everyone is out of sight. Personally, I think Stride's killer had left before Deimshutz's arrival, and if he's JtR, then something about the location wasn't right. Either the whole Schwartz event disturbed him, or noise in the club, or it was just too dark/muddy in the ally - basically something wasn't to his liking, but what we may never know. Of course, if B.S. was Stride's killer, and had been her companion for a few hours prior, then he's probably someone she knew, and he may have just gotten lucky that she was included as a victim of JtR. If Stride was planning on meeting someone that night, it appears she did not tell anyone as nobody reveals who she was going to meet, which is a bit of a problem with some of the ideas I've suggested, but perhaps she didn't want Kidney catching wind of anything until she found out how things might go with this fellow?. Mind you, she could have also just met him at the pub and didn't know him prior to that, but some have argued that her behaviour at the lodging house might indicate she was going out on a date.

Anyway, it is all speculation of course, and I may be trying to tie together things that should be kept separate. But if nothing else, I think it shows that it is entirely possible to tie the information together into one single story-line. Whether or not that is worth much we may never know.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Yes that the man in the alley is a possibility because we can't discount it. However the Police who investigated the incident and questioned Schwartz very closely didnt- as far as we know- entertain such an idea.

The reason I suggest Fanny Mortimer is so important is because she did see Leon Goldstein, so aside from her other comments we can place her at her door at around 12:55am. She felt it was ten minutes or so that she was at her door- but if it was really say 6-8 minutes, then she would have just missed the Schwartz incident. The fact is she saw no one else on the street and she was explicit about that:

"..and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School."

It would be exceptionately tight in timings- almost to make it impossible, that if as Mortimer went inside just after 12:55am, another man would walk down Berner Street and accost Stride who was inside the yard. Alternatively if one does insert another man- alleyman, then he could not have been the Ripper as there was more than enough time between 12:45 and the discovery of the body at 1am to perform mutilations. It doesn't add up. Sure you could argue he was spooked as well but this hypothetical man who had a tendency to violence attacked Stride immediately after she had been assaulted by BS man. Doesn't it make more sense that a man we can place at the scene- who has used a degree of violence to throw a woman to the ground is much more likely to have followed through with the act.

As I say if Schwartz did tell the truth then he witnessed the beginning of an attack on Stride which led to her death. BS man who is JTR decides not to mutilate after being spooked by Schwartz and thinks better of continuing on. He leaves and is heard by Fanny Mortimer who comes to her door a few minutes later. As I say she can definitely be placed at her door at 12:55am or thereabouts. We have Scwhartz witnessing an attack at 12:45am. These are the two key takeaways in my opinion. Everything else leaves us heapimg speculation upon speculation.

[Wickerman]

Speculation upon speculation often leads down rabbit holes however. To add an additional character to what Schwartz saw is very problematic. It just so happens that this man is in the shadows not seen by Schwartz and makes no attempt to intervene or help Stride back up as BS turns towards Schwartz and shouts 'Lipski'. It is the road to nowhere.

When the man she was with was intent on killing her anyway, where is the logic for him to step into the fracas and show himself?
As it happens what took place became the perfect cover, his intended victim was assaulted by someone else in front of a witness, which means he can kill her with impunity - no-one knew he was there.

Often the most simple answers are the ones which ring true. Schwartz witnesses BS man assault or attack Stride- he does not see anyone else bar Pipeman. We have no confirmation that BS man ever left the scene.

Which is the same argument for Parcel-man, no evidence he left the scene. Yet, neither were present when Diemschutz showed up, so we know both BS-man & Parcel-man did leave the scene.

Schwartz only described the altercation, so it is reasonable to conclude he didn't notice anyone else in the gateway.

Fanny Mortimer who was indoors hears measured footsteps she thinks is a Policeman's pass her home. They aren't though. They are the steps of BS man calmly leaving the scene.

Is this your rabbit-hole?, Mortimer didn't know which direction those footsteps were going, up or down the street.
There are at least four candidates; PC Smith, BS-man, Schwartz & Parcel-man, not forgetting a few club members.

Over the years there's been a lot of reasonable arguments against BS-man being her killer, yet some members persist in accusing him.

[Sunny Delight]

When the man she was with was intent on killing her anyway, where is the logic for him to step into the fracas and show himself?
As it happens what took place became the perfect cover, his intended victim was assaulted by someone else in front of a witness, which means he can kill her with impunity - no-one knew he was there.



Which is the same argument for Parcel-man, no evidence he left the scene. Yet, neither were present when Diemschutz showed up, so we know both BS-man & Parcel-man did leave the scene.

Schwartz only described the altercation, so it is reasonable to conclude he didn't notice anyone else in the gateway.



Is this your rabbit-hole?, Mortimer didn't know which direction those footsteps were going, up or down the street.
There are at least four candidates; PC Smith, BS-man, Schwartz & Parcel-man, not forgetting a few club members.

Over the years there's been a lot of reasonable arguments against BS-man being her killer, yet some members persist in accusing him.

No, I am going on the evidence we have. Mortimer heard footsteps pass her door and she can be definitively placed at that door at around 12:55am. She stated she was at her door around ten minutes and prior to that had hears the measured footsteps of a Policeman pass by. Now if we believe Schwartz then Mortimer could not have been at her door at 12:45am or she would have seen the whole thing. So those footsteps were someone passing. Since Schwartz only puts himself, Pipeman and BS man in the street at this time then logic dictates it must have been BS man that was heard casually walking from the scene. This is the evidence we have. Inserting another hypothetical man into the whole scenario is for the birds- quite frankly. We can't rule it out because well anything is possible but it is so far fetched.....

Many points have been put forward why BS man was not the killer. None are convincing whatsoever to be quite honest.

In regards the others not being confirmed as left the scene the problem is that Parcel Man did not show any aggression or pose a threat to Stride. You cant project a violent nature upon someone who just happened to be talking with a victim 30 minutes before they are discovered dead. It's a totally different thing to have someone show they are violent and show that they could pose a risk to Stride by throwing her to the ground 15 minutes before she is found dead. We don't need to project a violent nature upon BS man. He showed by his actions that he had one already.

We have a man, broad shouldered display both violence and physical strength on a victim- throwing her to the ground according to a witness- not yards from where 15 minutes later she is discovered dead. This man bears a real resemblance to a later sighting of a man, seen by another witness, conversing with a 2nd victim later that night.

And yet we are to foresake all that for a man hiding in the shadows of Dutfields yard. A hypothetical man with a tendency for violence.

[Wickerman]

No, I am going on the evidence we have. Mortimer heard footsteps pass her door and she can be definitively placed at that door at around 12:55am. She stated she was at her door around ten minutes and prior to that had hears the measured footsteps of a Policeman pass by. Now if we believe Schwartz then Mortimer could not have been at her door at 12:45am or she would have seen the whole thing. So those footsteps were someone passing. Since Schwartz only puts himself, Pipeman and BS man in the street at this time then logic dictates it must have been BS man that was heard casually walking from the scene. This is the evidence we have. Inserting another hypothetical man into the whole scenario is for the birds- quite frankly. We can't rule it out because well anything is possible but it is so far fetched.....

I'm surprised you can't see how you are creating your own evidence.
Mortimer was never sure about the times she came & went to her door.
Neither did she know which direction the footsteps were headed.

Schwartz never said the street was empty of people, he was only asked about the altercation.
There is also a news report from the Echo (1 Oct.) that a witness who saw the altercation.... took no notice of it as it was thought it was only a man and his wife quarreling.
Schwartz can hardly be said to have taken no notice of it, he ran away because of it.

The Star also reports many witnesses were present:

People have come forward by scores to furnish the description of a man they had seen with some woman near the scene....
Star, 2 Oct. 1888.

So, reports suggest other people were in fact present.

In regards the others not being confirmed as left the scene the problem is that Parcel Man did not show any aggression or pose a threat to Stride. You cant project a violent nature upon someone who just happened to be talking with a victim 30 minutes before they are discovered dead.

You seem to be avoiding the fact Parcel-man was the second official suspect posted by the police following the crime, so Parcel-man was not so innocuous as you prefer to make out.
Also, a violent nature has been projected on the Duke St. suspect with respect to the Eddowes murder only minutes later. Which tends to pull the rug out from under your idea of a placid appearance reflecting innocence.

I'm not the only one who questions the assault by BS-man being reflective of murderous intent. I'm quite satisfied he was likely a drunk who only physically reprimanded a prostitute.

[Sunny Delight]

I'm surprised you can't see how you are creating your own evidence.
Mortimer was never sure about the times she came & went to her door.
Neither did she know which direction the footsteps were headed.

Schwartz never said the street was empty of people, he was only asked about the altercation.
There is also a news report from the Echo (1 Oct.) that a witness who saw the altercation.... took no notice of it as it was thought it was only a man and his wife quarreling.
Schwartz can hardly be said to have taken no notice of it, he ran away because of it.

The Star also reports many witnesses were present:

People have come forward by scores to furnish the description of a man they had seen with some woman near the scene....
Star, 2 Oct. 1888.

So, reports suggest other people were in fact present.




You seem to be avoiding the fact Parcel-man was the second official suspect posted by the police following the crime, so Parcel-man was not so innocuous as you prefer to make out.
Also, a violent nature has been projected on the Duke St. suspect with respect to the Eddowes murder only minutes later. Which tends to pull the rug out from under your idea of a placid appearance reflecting innocence.

I'm not the only one who questions the assault by BS-man being reflective of murderous intent. I'm quite satisfied he was likely a drunk who only physically reprimanded a prostitute.

There were two reports based on Mortimers experience. Daily News October 1st:

"It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had anyone done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived".

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial Road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in the pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that they could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up, as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street about twenty yards away before, and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

If we believe Schwartz, then no matter what Mortimer said, she could not have been at her door when Schwartz witnessed the attack. This is said to have taken place around 12:45am. Mortimer is at her door at 12:55am as she witnesses Leon Goldstein walking by. This in fact is the only man she saw during that period. We can say for certain she was not at her door when BS man assaulted or scuffles with Stride. We can say for certain she was at her door when Goldstein scurried past. To my mind it leaves two possibilities:

The measured footsteps she hears at 12:45 are of BS man leaving the scene. Mortimer comes to her door and doesn't see anyone except Leon Goldstein. She goes back in and 4-5 minutes later Diemshutz finds the body.

Parcel man is hidden in Dutfields yard conversing with Stride. BS man assaults her, witnessed by Schwartz and Parcel man- unseen by Schwartz then attacks Stride and cuts her throat after BS man has left.

I know which one sounds more plausible.

As for the Star report are you suggesting there were multiple people on the street when the attack occured? That seems highly unlikely from what we know.

Comparing Parcel man with the man seen with Eddowes is comparing apples with oranges. I think everyone agrees that timing wise it would be impossible for the killer to have been anyone but the man seen with Lawende. I remember you had a notion of a different couple there as well. A phantom couple to go with our hypothetical man in the shadows.

[Wickerman]

There were two reports based on Mortimers experience. Daily News October 1st:..

Yes, plus The Morning Advertiser, and also The London Evening News, of the same date.

If we believe Schwartz, then no matter what Mortimer said, she could not have been at her door when Schwartz witnessed the attack.

Normally the contention is between Schwartz & Brown, few like to promote Mortimer's vague statements as trustworthy.
I'm open to Schwartz being mistaken about something, the problem is finding something viable that he could have been mistaken about. I certainly don't think he was part of a conspiracy involving the club, as some have suggested.
Brown thought he saw Stride with another man on the corner of Fairclough at 12:45, but Brown did not notice a flower on the woman's jacket. So, to my mind that is unreliable, especially as a girl admits to being on that very corner with her sweetheart.
Witnessed by Mortimer, ironically.

... Mortimer is at her door at 12:55am as she witnesses Leon Goldstein walking by. This in fact is the only man she saw during that period...

Well, no, that is not what she said.
She said the man with the bag was 'the only man she had seen pass through the street.'
The London Evening News offers an interesting line from Mortimer:
"the quiet and deserted character of the street appears to have struck her at the time..."
The above refers to the time she stood at her door around 12:45 "for about ten minutes".
So in her view the street was empty around 12:45 until 12:55, when she closed, and locked her door.
However, Mortimer also said there was a young couple standing at the corner throughout the whole affair, confirmed by James Brown, so the street cannot have been deserted.

We can say for certain she was not at her door when BS man assaulted or scuffles with Stride. We can say for certain she was at her door when Goldstein scurried past. To my mind it leaves two possibilities:

The measured footsteps she hears at 12:45 are of BS man leaving the scene. Mortimer comes to her door and doesn't see anyone except Leon Goldstein. She goes back in and 4-5 minutes later Diemshutz finds the body.

Parcel man is hidden in Dutfields yard conversing with Stride. BS man assaults her, witnessed by Schwartz and Parcel man- unseen by Schwartz then attacks Stride and cuts her throat after BS man has left.

Agreed, though in the former you have BS-man (partially intoxicated?) who has just been seen assaulting a woman, walk away at a measured pace (no trouble walking now?).
Compared with the latter, Parcel-man, not seen by anyone, walks away at a measured pace.

Comparing Parcel man with the man seen with Eddowes is comparing apples with oranges. I think everyone agrees that timing wise it would be impossible for the killer to have been anyone but the man seen with Lawende...

I think you have that wrong, the time window is quite narrow, about 7 minutes at the most, if Lawende saw the killer & Eddowes.
Levy said they got up to leave about 1:30, but left 3-4 mins later.
Watkins discovered Eddowes at 1:44, PC Harvey had been at the bottom end of Church Passage at 18 or 19 minutes to 2:00, which is 1:41 or 1:42.
So if Eddowes was killed before Harvey reached that spot the time window is 1:34 (Levy) to 1:41 (Harvey), for the couple to leave Duke St. walk down Church Passage, across the square, Eddowes be killed and mutilated, then him leave the square.

Whereas if Blenkingsop saw the killer with Eddowes enter St. James Passage at 1:30 as Watkins leaves, he had 11 minutes before Harvey arrived at the end of Church Passage at 1:41.

Not forgetting the woman at Duke St. seen by Lawende & Co. was never confirmed to be Eddowes, no-one saw the woman's face.

[Sunny Delight]

Yes, plus The Morning Advertiser, and also The London Evening News, of the same date.



Normally the contention is between Schwartz & Brown, few like to promote Mortimer's vague statements as trustworthy.
I'm open to Schwartz being mistaken about something, the problem is finding something viable that he could have been mistaken about. I certainly don't think he was part of a conspiracy involving the club, as some have suggested.
Brown thought he saw Stride with another man on the corner of Fairclough at 12:45, but Brown did not notice a flower on the woman's jacket. So, to my mind that is unreliable, especially as a girl admits to being on that very corner with her sweetheart.
Witnessed by Mortimer, ironically.




Well, no, that is not what she said.
She said the man with the bag was 'the only man she had seen pass through the street.'
The London Evening News offers an interesting line from Mortimer:
"the quiet and deserted character of the street appears to have struck her at the time..."
The above refers to the time she stood at her door around 12:45 "for about ten minutes".
So in her view the street was empty around 12:45 until 12:55, when she closed, and locked her door.
However, Mortimer also said there was a young couple standing at the corner throughout the whole affair, confirmed by James Brown, so the street cannot have been deserted.



Agreed, though in the former you have BS-man (partially intoxicated?) who has just been seen assaulting a woman, walk away at a measured pace (no trouble walking now?).
Compared with the latter, Parcel-man, not seen by anyone, walks away at a measured pace.



I think you have that wrong, the time window is quite narrow, about 7 minutes at the most, if Lawende saw the killer & Eddowes.
Levy said they got up to leave about 1:30, but left 3-4 mins later.
Watkins discovered Eddowes at 1:44, PC Harvey had been at the bottom end of Church Passage at 18 or 19 minutes to 2:00, which is 1:41 or 1:42.
So if Eddowes was killed before Harvey reached that spot the time window is 1:34 (Levy) to 1:41 (Harvey), for the couple to leave Duke St. walk down Church Passage, across the square, Eddowes be killed and mutilated, then him leave the square.

Whereas if Blenkingsop saw the killer with Eddowes enter St. James Passage at 1:30 as Watkins leaves, he had 11 minutes before Harvey arrived at the end of Church Passage at 1:41.

Not forgetting the woman at Duke St. seen by Lawende & Co. was never confirmed to be Eddowes, no-one saw the woman's face.

I think it likely that the couple Mortimer described was the couple seen by James Brown. Mortimer did not report seeing the couple on the street or passing through the street but does say they informed her they did not hear a sound.

Exactly what I was suggesting. We know Mrs Mortimer was not at her door at 12:45am as otherwise she would have seen Schwartz et al. We know she was at her door at 12:55am and the only person she had seen in that 10 minute period was Leon Golstein. We can be fairly certain no one was in the street in that period. Mortimer's evidence is convoluted but if we just focus on the ten minute period where she comes to the door things become clearer.

You make a good point in regards a slightly intoxicated BS man walking in a measured way. It isn't impossible of course for someone a bit tipsy to walk in such a manner but yes that is a little problematic. As BS man was the only man seen on the street however, it still appears much more likely he walked passed than an unseen man.

If the man seen with a woman by Lawende and co was the Ripper then timing wise it would be impossible for the killer to be anyone else. Blenkingsop did not offer much. He had seen some people pass by but hadn't taken any notice. Of course that leaves a vacuum where Eddowes and her killer can be inserted.

[New Waterloo]

Sorry if I have just jumped in here. Drained all my energy on Bible John so apologies but havn't really been following all of this. Just throwing this into the mix. I don't think Diemshutz is the first person to know that Stride has had her throat cut. All of these people around just before he arrives just cant disappear. Can they. Some into the downstairs part of the club as mentioned previously some running away perhaps. some teleported up to the starship enterprise.

Perhaps there was an incident. A disagreement between two or three people. Stride gets in the way. Throat cut. Goes quiet for that short period while people decide what to do. Diemschutz arrives.

The place is too busy. Even Mortimer states that she cannot understand how the lady in the kitchen (I cant remember who) doesn't hear anything.

Perhaps its a punch up or some disorder like they were always having at the club and it went wrong. Simple as that. Rubbish idea I know

NW

[Sunny Delight]

Sorry if I have just jumped in here. Drained all my energy on Bible John so apologies but havn't really been following all of this. Just throwing this into the mix. I don't think Diemshutz is the first person to know that Stride has had her throat cut. All of these people around just before he arrives just cant disappear. Can they. Some into the downstairs part of the club as mentioned previously some running away perhaps. some teleported up to the starship enterprise.

Perhaps there was an incident. A disagreement between two or three people. Stride gets in the way. Throat cut. Goes quiet for that short period while people decide what to do. Diemschutz arrives.

The place is too busy. Even Mortimer states that she cannot understand how the lady in the kitchen (I cant remember who) doesn't hear anything.

Perhaps its a punch up or some disorder like they were always having at the club and it went wrong. Simple as that. Rubbish idea I know

NW

Think about every day life. This wasn't some strange alien world- these were real people going about their real lives. People pass through streets all the time. It just so happens for the Ripper that he was fortunate that no one stumbled across him in the act- although in my opinion Schwartz came close.

A club conspiracy is definitely one for the birds as they say. It just didn't happen. Here is what I think is a possible scenario:

12:35- A man with a parcel is conversing with Elizabeth Stride in Berner Street opposite the Socialist club. They are spotted by PC Smith.

12:38/12:40- Morris Eagle returns to the club. He uses the side entrance and can't recall seeing anyone in Berner Street although he didn't pay much attention. Stride and Parcel Man are no longer where they had been.

12:44/12:45- Israel Schwartz witnesses a broad shouldered man grapple and scuffle with Elizabeth Stride near Dutfields Yard. This man had entered Berner Street in front of Schwartz. Stride is thrown to the ground indicating a degree of force used.

12:46/12:47- Immediately on hearing measured footsteps pass her house Fanny Mortimer of Berner Street goes to her door. She remains there for 10 or so minutes.

12:48- James Brown witnesses a couple standing by the Board School. He hears them conversing. There is no flower on the woman's clothing. This couple later reports to Fanny Mortimer that they were standing by the Board School for a time but had heard no sound.

12:55- Fanny Mortimer still standing at her door witnesses a man with a black shiny bag passing along Berner Street. He later goes to the Police station and is identified as Leon Goldstein. This is the only person she has seen in the 10 minute period at her door.

1:00- Louis Diemschutz discovers the body of Elizabeth Stride just inside Dutfields Yard. Her throat has been cut.

[The Rookie Detective]

Think about every day life. This wasn't some strange alien world- these were real people going about their real lives. People pass through streets all the time. It just so happens for the Ripper that he was fortunate that no one stumbled across him in the act- although in my opinion Schwartz came close.

A club conspiracy is definitely one for the birds as they say. It just didn't happen. Here is what I think is a possible scenario:

12:35- A man with a parcel is conversing with Elizabeth Stride in Berner Street opposite the Socialist club. They are spotted by PC Smith.

12:38/12:40- Morris Eagle returns to the club. He uses the side entrance and can't recall seeing anyone in Berner Street although he didn't pay much attention. Stride and Parcel Man are no longer where they had been.

12:44/12:45- Israel Schwartz witnesses a broad shouldered man grapple and scuffle with Elizabeth Stride near Dutfields Yard. This man had entered Berner Street in front of Schwartz. Stride is thrown to the ground indicating a degree of force used.

12:46/12:47- Immediately on hearing measured footsteps pass her house Fanny Mortimer of Berner Street goes to her door. She remains there for 10 or so minutes.

12:48- James Brown witnesses a couple standing by the Board School. He hears them conversing. There is no flower on the woman's clothing. This couple later reports to Fanny Mortimer that they were standing by the Board School for a time but had heard no sound.

12:55- Fanny Mortimer still standing at her door witnesses a man with a black shiny bag passing along Berner Street. He later goes to the Police station and is identified as Leon Goldstein. This is the only person she has seen in the 10 minute period at her door.

1:00- Louis Diemschutz discovers the body of Elizabeth Stride just inside Dutfields Yard. Her throat has been cut.

There is one key aspect of Mortimer's statement that nobody seems to consider...

Mortimer claims she heard measured footsteps pass outside her door.

It seems apparent that Mortimer is implying she thought it was a policeman.

But if the Schwartz incident did occur circa 12.45am, then she had to have heard Schwartz passing by her door BUT then not gone to her door to look out until after Schwartz, Bs man and Pipeman had gone; otherwise she would have seen or heard at least one of them.

If Smith passed her door between 12.30am to 12.35am

And Schwartz passed by her door circa 12.45am

Then why didn't Mortimer hear Bs Man pass by her door just before Schwartz did?

Mortimer only heard 1 person walk past

She didn't hear BOTH Bs Man and Schwartz.

Why not?

Mortimer's statement in combination with Schwartz's statement go to prove that BS man had to of come from the opposite direction shortly before he was seen by Schwartz.

This would in turn suggest that BS man heard Schwartz approaching and then turned back around to attack Stride.

This may indicate that Parcel Man and Bs Man were the same person.

[Sunny Delight]

There is one key aspect of Mortimer's statement that nobody seems to consider...

Mortimer claims she heard measured footsteps pass outside her door.

It seems apparent that Mortimer is implying she thought it was a policeman.

But if the Schwartz incident did occur circa 12.45am, then she had to have heard Schwartz passing by her door BUT then not gone to her door to look out until after Schwartz, Bs man and Pipeman had gone; otherwise she would have seen or heard at least one of them.

If Smith passed her door between 12.30am to 12.35am

And Schwartz passed by her door circa 12.45am

Then why didn't Mortimer hear Bs Man pass by her door just before Schwartz did?

Mortimer only heard 1 person walk past

She didn't hear BOTH Bs Man and Schwartz.

Why not?

Mortimer's statement in combination with Schwartz's statement go to prove that BS man had to of come from the opposite direction shortly before he was seen by Schwartz.

This would in turn suggest that BS man heard Schwartz approaching and then turned back around to attack Stride.

This may indicate that Parcel Man and Bs Man were the same person.

When BS man and Schwartz were walking down Berner Street we don't know Mortimers location within her home. When the measured footsteps passed her door we don't know where she was standing in her home to hear them. We could question her on that if she was still stood or sat in the same position. What we do know is that, unless we think her a liar, she heard measured footsteps pass her door. We know that Israel Schwartz places four people on the street including himself around this time. We know him and Pipeman went in the opposite direction to Mortimers home after witnessing the attack on Stride. That leaves only one person it could have been.........

Morris Eagle returns to the club and although he didn't take much notice of the surroundings it appears Stride and Parcel Man were no longer in the immediate area.

[The Rookie Detective]

When BS man and Schwartz were walking down Berner Street we don't know Mortimers location within her home. When the measured footsteps passed her door we don't know where she was standing in her home to hear them. We could question her on that if she was still stood or sat in the same position. What we do know is that, unless we think her a liar, she heard measured footsteps pass her door. We know that Israel Schwartz places four people on the street including himself around this time. We know him and Pipeman went in the opposite direction to Mortimers home after witnessing the attack on Stride. That leaves only one person it could have been.........

Morris Eagle returns to the club and although he didn't take much notice of the surroundings it appears Stride and Parcel Man were no longer in the immediate area.

Ah, but my point is that when Schwartz walked past Mortimer door; Bs Man was slightly ahead of him; between himself and Stride.

If Mortimer heard Schwartz but didn't hear Bs Man, then Bs Man had to have been standing between Mortimer's door and Stride at the time Schwartz walked past.

Otherwise, Mortimer would have heard Bs man walk past her door followed moments later by Schwartz.

In other words; when Schwartz walked down Berner St; Bs Man was already between Mortimer's door and Stride; meaning he was either stationary until he heard Schwartz approach and decided to walk away from Schwartz and towards Stride; or he was already with Stride and had began to walk north but stopped short of walking past Mortimer's door.

The measured walking does not fit with Bs Man either.

If Mortimer heard Schwartz walk past, then Bs Man was IMO either Parcelman or Lave.

But of course; if you were to omit Schwartz's account entirely, then Mortimer heard PC Smith as the police officer walked BACK up Berner Street after having seen Parcelman with Stride.

Mortimer could have heard PC Smith walk past her door heading NORTH up Berner Street as late as 12.38am, just as Eagle tried the door of the club and headed back into the side door in the yard at 12.40am.

Parcel man is possibly Lave, who heads back in either just before or after Eagle, and the couple seen by Brown circa 12.45am are Stride and her killer.

The idea that the sweetheart couple who were standing on the corner didn't see or hear anything, completely contradicts Schwartz's account.

To be clear; if there was another couple standing on the corner by the board school, they would have at least HEARD the assault commited by Bs Man on Stride and/or heard the shout of "LIPSKI!."

The rejection of "No, not tonight" to me also does not sound like a sweetheart couple ( a married couple would sound about right though, haha!)

It's possible that after Brown walked past, the man who had been rejected simply followed Stride into the yard; or perhaps she made an attempt to go the side club door as she had already witnessed the main door was locked after seeing Eagle attempt to get in a few minutes earlier.

Mortimer gets to her door just as Stride is being murdered out of sight...

but wait...

that doesn't fit because then the killer had nowhere to go without being seen.

That means EITHER the killer went into the club OR he had to have left the murder site BEFORE Mortimer was there at her door.

When you combine Schwartz (Bs man and Pipe man) Mortimer, Brown and the other couple on the corner...there's literally no way that it all fits together.

And so either...

Mortimer
Brown
Schwartz
Other couple

are lying or mistaken at the very least.

Plus there's the on-the-run Lave who gives such a vague account and is still unaccountable when comparing with Eagle.

Of ALL the individuals in Berner Street IMO only Eagle gives a natural account and his timings of trying the front door and then going into the side door circa 12.40am I believe are the only accurate account across the board.

Eagle also actively attempts to get help and is around AFTER the murder.

Even Pc Smith is more suspicious than Eagle IMO.


So much to ponder