Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Michael W Richards]

We know that Goldstein was seen walking hurriedly down Berner Street, but the question is... did Goldstein see Fanny?

RD

We only know that Goldsteins story fits with what Fanny says she saw at around 12:55am. But if she wasnt at her door, then how would she see Goldstein? Whether he saw her or not, it doesnt compromise her story.

[Wickerman]

... Now, on Leon, how do we know whether he saw anything when he looked into the passageway,..

...I think its possible that Leon Goldsteins Gladstone bag of cigarette cartons were intended for the cigarette makers living in the cottages in the passageway, who later said they were awake at the time. I think he looked in, saw some people huddling and decided to move, or was shooed, on down the road. I think it might be why we dont see him for a few days. Him seen with the bag that Fanny saw and all. The birth of the Ripper with the Black Bag legend.

If what you speculate is true, then why not simply tell police that?

[Doctored Whatsit]

The thing with many of these statements is that some claim to be somewhere specific at an approximated time, and others also claim to have been there at said place and time, and neither sees the other. No-one sees Israel, .....or BSM or Pipeman for that matter. Yet Fanny may have been at her door at that time, as she is there off and on throughout that half hour, nor the young couple in the immediate area, see anyone. We know Fanny is at her door at approx 1am, and we know that minutes before she recorded seeing Goldstein pass by, look in, and hurry on past. But she doesnt see Louis coming up the street at all. Which he would have had to have been doing had he arrived when he says he did,...actually when he "precisely" says he did.

All timings must be slightly approximate, but Fanny was going in and out, and didn't see Stride at the entrance of the yard, where she must have been at perhaps 12. 45 am, therefore she would not have seen Schwarz, BSM or Pipeman at that same time. Fanny came back out and saw Goldstein at about 12. 55 am, went back inside, and shortly afterwards heard Louis D arriving.

I am not entirely happy with the whole scenario, but I don't see that Fanny's evidence is a contradiction of anything important.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

My suspicion is that he attempted to take her down the yard. If all had gone to plan we would have found Stride further down the yard in the darkness, but this encounter fell apart before he was able to get her to the far end.

In that case they would have walked into the yard together, leaving the solo standing at the gate unexplained.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I suppose that his given time would work fine in that scenario, his perspective is whats changed of course, but an exit around 12:45 would work well...its almost at the earliest cut time.

I think its possible that Leon Goldsteins Gladstone bag of cigarette cartons were intended for the cigarette makers living in the cottages in the passageway, who later said they were awake at the time. I think he looked in, saw some people huddling and decided to move, or was shooed, on down the road. I think it might be why we dont see him for a few days. Him seen with the bag that Fanny saw and all. The birth of the Ripper with the Black Bag legend.

So, after Schwartz leaves the club with perfect timing to see the street incident that no one else sees or hears, Stride is killed. Then you have men huddled around the deceased at close to 1am, but you also claim the body was found at around the time of the incident. Correct? So, Diemschitz finds the body just after 12:45? Club members then stand around thinking what to do for several minutes, before going for police, contrary to what was stated at the inquest.

One of the problems I have with this is that it requires Mortimer to see Goldstein, after Diemschitz arrives. Wasn't it before she hears the pony and cart? If you maintain that order of events but keep the rest, then the route taken by both Schwartz and Goldstein, into, down, and out of Berner St, becomes coincident in time. Given the sighting of Goldstein and the non-sighting of Schwartz, that could only mean that the two identities were one and the same man.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If what you speculate is true, then why not simply tell police that?

Especially given that it's already difficult to explain why Wess waited until very late on the Tuesday to drag Goldstein to a police station. Perhaps the explanation has something to with the Star reporting doubts about the Hungarians story, earlier that day.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

All timings must be slightly approximate, but Fanny was going in and out, and didn't see Stride at the entrance of the yard, where she must have been at perhaps 12. 45 am, therefore she would not have seen Schwarz, BSM or Pipeman at that same time.

"That same time" is your assumption, not a fact. How do you know that Stride hadn't been standing in the gateway for five minutes or more, before the three men came along? Or did all four people 'appear' at almost exactly the same time?

Fanny came back out and saw Goldstein at about 12. 55 am, went back inside, and shortly afterwards heard Louis D arriving.

I am not entirely happy with the whole scenario, but I don't see that Fanny's evidence is a contradiction of anything important.

We are told in one report that a woman (apparently Fanny), came to her doorstep just after hearing the plod of a policeman's boots. The policeman in question did not see Stride standing solo in the gateway. Was this an earlier doorstep vigil? If no, then your scenario has issues. If yes, then we can't know for sure what doorstep period is being referred to, in the following quote.

It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

"Previously" could therefore refer to the 12:40-45 period. But then how could Mortimer not see Schwartz, if she did see Goldstein? Well, if Schwartz was prone to theatrical exaggeration, then maybe she did see him.

[Doctored Whatsit]

"That same time" is your assumption, not a fact. How do you know that Stride hadn't been standing in the gateway for five minutes or more, before the three men came along? Or did all four people 'appear' at almost exactly the same time?

The point that I was trying to make is that Stride must have entered the yard either on her own or in company at perhaps about 12. 45 am, and Fanny M did not see this. Therefore if the Schwarz, BSM, and Pipeman story is correct, then Fanny could not have seen them, because she was not at her door when Stride entered the yard. Whether Stride was at the gateway for one minute, or ten minutes, Fanny didn't see her, which was the relevant point I was making, so she could not have witnessed the Schwarz, BSM, Pipeman incident.

[GBinOz]

Hi George, hope you're well.

Coroner: When you were called in what direction were you going?

PC Lamb: I was coming towards Berner-street. Police-constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty.

I wonder if there would normally have been some sort of handover at 1am. Now if 1am came and went, the fixed-point officer would be starting to leave before meeting with the PC on the Berner St beat and that could mean a breach of protocol. So, just maybe, Smith 'tweaked' his times a little, to avoid any trouble for himself. Could that explain the timing discrepancies with other witnesses?

As for Diemschitz, is it possible that his embellishment of the time had something to do with the not knowing the accuracy of the Harris clock, but wanting to sound definite to the coroner?

Hi Andrew,

I am as well as can be expected of someone approaching seventy five years on this planet. Thank you for asking.

I have long been baffled by the fixed point police concept. A police officer in place who can not respond to any policing emergency. But, it was was it was. I'm sceptical that when the fixed point officer completed his duty, that the beat officer then stood stationary in that position. I think it more likely that he continued his beat knowing that he had the additional responsibility of that of the fixed point officer, what ever that may have been.

I am not convinced that Diemshitz, given the angles involved, could have even seen the Harris clock when he turned into Berner St. I may be wrong, but I suspect that he manufactured that detail at the inquest.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Thanks George, we each have our own belief in who the killer was, but the police did publish Parcel-man's description the very next day. He was very much a suspect in the eyes of Scotland Yard. My suspicions about precisely what was intended that night may be wide of the mark, but the police learned enough that they too described him as a suspect. So I think my suspicions are on firm ground.

Hi Jon,

To me, Parcelman fits more the role of suitor rather than killer. I think he spent too much time with her to have been her killer. JMO.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

I think we have to accept Stride was with someone in that gateway. She was not a known figure in that part of town, so it is not likely she made her own way there by herself just to listen to singing coming from the club. Someone brought her there, she was not alone, so the fact the only witness we have who fleeted past the gateway didn't see the man she was with only means he must have been a few feet further down the yard in the shadows. He didn't want to be seen, and the fact BS-man didn't come forward means we are left with Schwartz's own incomplete fleeting account.

Hi Jon,

Once again I agree with your premise, but I suspect that whoever she was with (Parcelman, most likely), may have been more than a few feet away. IMO, he may have been using the loo facilities or conducting some business in the club. I have difficulty in imagining that a man who had accompanied a woman for many hours that night would stand idly by while she was slaughtered. JMO.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

Israel Schwartz's account is fabricated for several reasons...


Nobody else saw or heard Stride being assaulted.

Bs man and Pipeman only exist through his story

In his account, Schwartz gets his sides of the street wrong in relation to him and pipeman, after passing Bs man.

The reason why Schwartz claims that Stride cried out 3 times, but "not very loudly," is because he could then use her muted response as a reason why nobody heard her. We have all been trying to work out why Stride didn't just scream loudly, or cry out for help as she was assaulted; using the excuse that it might have been because she knew him and didn't think she was in danger....whereas the most obvious and logical explanation is...the assault never happened in the first place.

Schwartz plays the 'race card' by claiming that Bs man shouted out a racial slur toward him. But nobody else heard anything at all in relation to that claim. By incorporating into his story the idea that he was racially slurred, it helps to try and convince the police the man who assaulted Stride was the perpetrator.

His timing is convenient, yet questionable.
Any earlier and Pc Smith, Eagle etc...see him.
Any later and he must have been there when Stride was murdered, or at the very least he would have seen her killer.
Yet when we add Lave and Fanny into the mix, the window in which Schwartz, Bs Man and Pipeman could have been in that location is diminished beyond possibility.

Of course, any later and he's Goldstein.

Schwartz has the appearance of a man who's playing a role.

Schwartz has been hard to track through official sources and outside of his Berner Street story and subsequent 15 minutes in the spotlight, he is somewhat of a ghost, similar to the elusive George Hutchinson.

Now if we view the events in Berner Street but omit Schwartz's dramatic story, then almost everything else fits into place.


If something doesn't fit, then it's probably because it's not meant to.

Trying to put square pegs into round holes because 1 person says the holes are square, is IMO a complete waste of time.


RD

[c.d.]

Sorry R.D. but people see and hear things all the time to which they are the sole witness.

Her crying out but not very loudly most likely is the result of a bad translation.

If what he heard (and that is not completely determined) was Lipski then that is what he heard. Stating that is not playing the race card in any way.

If Schwartz was determined to convince the police that the BS man was the the murderer he could have embellished the whole throwing down aspect a lot more and thrown in a knife for good measure. That is why Swanson considered the possibility of another murderer coming along believing Schwartz may just have seen a common street hassle.

Schwartz's story is to be taken with a grain of salt because of the language problem and the very short time he was on the scene. I see no reason at all to disbelieve what he saw.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

In that case they would have walked into the yard together, leaving the solo standing at the gate unexplained.

The entry is very dark, house walls on either side so the man can be in the shadows but barely a foot or more away from her. I'm not saying they were stood separately. BS-man passed but (according to police) he grabbed her and turned her around, which suggests she had her back to the street. Which she would have if she was facing someone else, likely talking to Parcel-man stood in front of her but in the shadow of the house.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

To me, Parcelman fits more the role of suitor rather than killer. I think he spent too much time with her to have been her killer. JMO.

Cheers, George

Hi George.
Fair comment, but how much time did the killer spend with Nichols, Chapman & Kelly, before murdering them?