Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[c.d.]

And actually BSM never threw anyone down in Schwartz's story, she pulled free and fell.

12:45 AM (approximately): Quoting Home Office File:

"Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, turning into Berner Street from Commercial Road, and having gotten as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.

Not sure what you were referencing. A newspaper account perhaps?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

The word "Ripper" is the key to what I posted, thats all. She was in no way "ripped". But Polly was, Annie was, Kate was and Mary...well, thats a whole new kettle of fish. Strides death, not what you perceive are similar peripheral circumstances, is unlike any other alleged Ripper murder. And the C5 is just a theory, just like many others here.

her neck sure was ripped

[GBinOz]

I think your problem disappears if you consider we have misread the whole encounter.
Liz arrived at Dutfields Yard accompanied by JtR, she was seen with him at the Bricklayers Arms, he bought her grapes from Packers shop, they were seen by PC Smith standing opposite the yard.

BS-man was only an intruder walking past the gateway, Schwartz did not see the man Liz was with, he only saw the intruder stagger past and attempt to remove her from the gateway.
We only have one side of this encounter, and the witness's main concern was his own welfare, not that of the woman being manhandled.

Hi Jon,

I agree with the points you make in your post, but I struggle to accept that Parcelman was JtR, or that he killed Stride. But I do see him, and his where-abouts at the time, to be a key factor.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Can you remind what this man was doing when the BS man came along?

Hi Andrew,

That is the key question, IMHO.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

It would be fair to say that Diemschitz' arrival time was only as accurate as the Harris clock allowed it to be. Presumably PC Smith's timing is in conflict with the Harris clock, but I wonder if Smith, who would have picked up the responsibilities of the fixed-point officer at 1am, told the coroner where he was supposed to be at that time, rather than where he actually was - perhaps a few minutes up Commercial Rd.

Hi Andrew,

Diemshitz's embellishment regarding seeing the Harris clock emerged at the inquest, and not before. I would take Smith's testimony as being more factual. This is the first time I have seen it suggested that Smith was to take over the duties of the fixed point officer.

Cheers, George

[Michael W Richards]

And actually BSM never threw anyone down in Schwartz's story, she pulled free and fell.

12:45 AM (approximately): Quoting Home Office File:

"Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, turning into Berner Street from Commercial Road, and having gotten as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.

Not sure what you were referencing. A newspaper account perhaps?

c.d.

It was, and as you know there are a variety of versions of his story about. Some are push, some are pull, some are shove. My objections to accepting BSM are more related to Israel Schwartz, not him as a potential killer. I do think BSM, if any of the story is accurate, would be a fine contender. I dont perceive he would have much in the way of finesse with any knives in his condition, and the single cut Liz receives could have been done by virtually anyone. Not particularly indicative of any training in such things. The evidence of training aspect is very important when assessing these I think, when Annie was killed the focus of the investigation into potential suspects narrowed in on people within the medical community, either in training or in practice. In part, that was something created by the story of the teaching hospital and the doctor who approached them for organs,....but that kind of skill set. Not necessary on Berner Street though, a brief altercation with a drunken thug with a knife was enough.

Its for that reason that Israel not being "On Record" at the formal proceedings, makes me think there are strong reasons for doubt. And Ive never been comfortable with the idea that 3 men and Liz Stride suddenly appear on a road that has been called deserted by several witnesses that last half hour. They didnt walk up the street to get there? No-one saw that either? What of the young couple? They have sight access to everything that last half hour, they apparently saw nothing. They were interviewed, I believe that Fanny spoke with them after. What of Morris...and Lave. They saw no-one..not even each other.

If Israel was actually leaving the club by the side door and saw a woman and a man partially obscured by the open gate near the wall, and then saw some aggression and slid past them to the street and scurried on home, I think that could be reasonable. It would address his less than believable story for being there at that time, it would address the fact that none of this is seen from the street, and it would explain why the club staff might want to handle this carefully. It would place the killer in the passageway with the victim on the spot where it happens near the time it is suggested it happened by Blackwell,........so why then place it off the property in the street and hint that the surly man is Antisemitic? Self explanatory? Did Wess translate for him, as he did Goldstein? Is this something that a translator might have had opportunity to do....tailor the story to fit the requirements of the club? I think its a compelling line of thought.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Andrew,

Diemshitz's embellishment regarding seeing the Harris clock emerged at the inquest, and not before. I would take Smith's testimony as being more factual. This is the first time I have seen it suggested that Smith was to take over the duties of the fixed point officer.

Cheers, George

I think George that its been underplayed in this discussion, there are certain characters that had a mandated duty to track their times and activities. Smith, Lamb, the medical men, these all had reports to fill out and the notation of times and occurrences would be important. Johnson notes his arrival time. As does Blackwell. Their formal reports later on will start from that point. Important for all these individuals to be responsible about those details.

Now, when you have a witness who doesnt have that duty, like Spooner, his estimates have to be to be taken tentatively. In his case we are fortunate that in the recorded statements taken that night we find other witnesses who stated approximately the same time as he did at the Inquest.

As I mentioned, BSM inside the passageway with Liz and Israel leaving via the side door does work...even the measured tramp of boots heard from indoors might have been Israels. I think the horse and cart sounds might have been Louis's pony and cart being taken to the stable...surely with what had happened and what was to come, moving them would have been smart.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

Diemshitz's embellishment regarding seeing the Harris clock emerged at the inquest, and not before. I would take Smith's testimony as being more factual. This is the first time I have seen it suggested that Smith was to take over the duties of the fixed point officer.

Cheers, George

Hi George, hope you're well.

Coroner: When you were called in what direction were you going?

PC Lamb: I was coming towards Berner-street. Police-constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty.

I wonder if there would normally have been some sort of handover at 1am. Now if 1am came and went, the fixed-point officer would be starting to leave before meeting with the PC on the Berner St beat and that could mean a breach of protocol. So, just maybe, Smith 'tweaked' his times a little, to avoid any trouble for himself. Could that explain the timing discrepancies with other witnesses?

As for Diemschitz, is it possible that his embellishment of the time had something to do with the not knowing the accuracy of the Harris clock, but wanting to sound definite to the coroner?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Israel was actually leaving the club by the side door and saw a woman and a man partially obscured by the open gate near the wall, and then saw some aggression and slid past them to the street and scurried on home, I think that could be reasonable. It would address his less than believable story for being there at that time, it would address the fact that none of this is seen from the street, and it would explain why the club staff might want to handle this carefully. It would place the killer in the passageway with the victim on the spot where it happens near the time it is suggested it happened by Blackwell,........so why then place it off the property in the street and hint that the surly man is Antisemitic? Self explanatory? Did Wess translate for him, as he did Goldstein? Is this something that a translator might have had opportunity to do....tailor the story to fit the requirements of the club? I think its a compelling line of thought.

At about what time do you suppose Schwartz might have left the club by the side door and scurried home? What time was Goldstein seen walking quickly down Berner? Did he see men in the passageway? Why would Schwartz take the risk of telling a partially false story if it were Goldstein who was seen on the street, and not him?

[Michael W Richards]

At about what time do you suppose Schwartz might have left the club by the side door and scurried home? What time was Goldstein seen walking quickly down Berner? Did he see men in the passageway? Why would Schwartz take the risk of telling a partially false story if it were Goldstein who was seen on the street, and not him?

I suppose that his given time would work fine in that scenario, his perspective is whats changed of course, but an exit around 12:45 would work well...its almost at the earliest cut time. I believe its been established that Wess and Schwartz knew each other for a year or 2 before that night. Its probable that Wess was his translator at the station giving his statement, he also did that for Leon. Would it really be so surprising if he was at that meeting after going to market around noon, being Jewish, likely impoverished, and a candidate for socialist ideals. Lived nearby...apparently. A large meeting was the way it was described, perhaps 200 people at its peak. Re-position him and have him see someone manhandling Liz on the very spot she is later found, at around 12:45 as he said it was. Put that assault just outside the gates...on the street....and him, perhaps not wanting to own up to being at the club that night instead of helping his wife settle in to the new place, is just on his way to see her at that moment. Everybody wins. The club breathes a sigh of relief, Israel appears to be a good husband, everyone is good. And how much harm would it be to make that little modification to the truth? To have the evidence point directly at someone on the premises at that time would be poison to business, and dangerous to locals Jews. If no-one saw anyone then the odds are substantially in favour of the killer being from the club, on the premises, before the encounter with Liz.

My personal approach is to use the facts, as found, and then try and find a reasonable and logical way to have them work together to tell a story. People like simplistic answers, ....she was selling herself to the wrong guy, she was passing by, she was to be on a date with someone there, she was hired to clean....whatever, as long as you use all the known established data to determine what likely went on, and why. In this case I think its a perfectly reasonable approach. And changing that one angle, Israel leaving the club from Israel on the street, many conflicting points go away. Why she wasnt see after 12:35 by anyone but Schwartz..and BSM of course. Why no-one saw or heard 4 people suddenly appear on the street in front of the clubs yard entrance. Why witnesses said the street was deserted throughout that last half hour.

BSM, if the story has any real weight, is the most likely man to have killed her. The manner of her death is not precise and there are no indications that subsequent actions were planned, or desired. A thug, maybe being rejected, perhaps very drunk,..the type of guy that carries such a knife and is prepared to use it. Bad judgment, temporary insanity,...a few seconds of lost control. There is no trace of a complex killer compulsively seeking more invasive cutting.

[Wickerman]

Can you remind what this man was doing when the BS man came along?

My suspicion is that he attempted to take her down the yard. If all had gone to plan we would have found Stride further down the yard in the darkness, but this encounter fell apart before he was able to get her to the far end.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I agree with the points you make in your post, but I struggle to accept that Parcelman was JtR, or that he killed Stride. But I do see him, and his where-abouts at the time, to be a key factor.

Cheers, George

Thanks George, we each have our own belief in who the killer was, but the police did publish Parcel-man's description the very next day. He was very much a suspect in the eyes of Scotland Yard. My suspicions about precisely what was intended that night may be wide of the mark, but the police learned enough that they too described him as a suspect. So I think my suspicions are on firm ground.

[Wickerman]

Hi Andrew,

That is the key question, IMHO.

Cheers, George

I think we have to accept Stride was with someone in that gateway. She was not a known figure in that part of town, so it is not likely she made her own way there by herself just to listen to singing coming from the club. Someone brought her there, she was not alone, so the fact the only witness we have who fleeted past the gateway didn't see the man she was with only means he must have been a few feet further down the yard in the shadows. He didn't want to be seen, and the fact BS-man didn't come forward means we are left with Schwartz's own incomplete fleeting account.

[Michael W Richards]

I think we have to accept Stride was with someone in that gateway. She was not a known figure in that part of town, so it is not likely she made her own way there by herself just to listen to singing coming from the club. Someone brought her there, she was not alone, so the fact the only witness we have who fleeted past the gateway didn't see the man she was with only means he must have been a few feet further down the yard in the shadows. He didn't want to be seen, and the fact BS-man didn't come forward means we are left with Schwartz's own incomplete fleeting account.

I would agree with those first 2 sentences Wick, although I dont discount her being there to meet someone. Or to clean for that matter. But I think one thing that might be gleaned here is that its probable she wasnt selling herself that night. Other plans. Now, on Leon, how do we know whether he saw anything when he looked into the passageway,...by his own statement of course. Given on Tuesday night, with Woolf Wess translating. One of 2 translation gigs for Wess in the past few days.

The thing with many of these statements is that some claim to be somewhere specific at an approximated time, and others also claim to have been there at said place and time, and neither sees the other. No-one sees Israel, .....or BSM or Pipeman for that matter. Yet Fanny may have been at her door at that time, as she is there off and on throughout that half hour, nor the young couple in the immediate area, see anyone. We know Fanny is at her door at approx 1am, and we know that minutes before she recorded seeing Goldstein pass by, look in, and hurry on past. But she doesnt see Louis coming up the street at all. Which he would have had to have been doing had he arrived when he says he did,...actually when he "precisely" says he did.

I think its possible that Leon Goldsteins Gladstone bag of cigarette cartons were intended for the cigarette makers living in the cottages in the passageway, who later said they were awake at the time. I think he looked in, saw some people huddling and decided to move, or was shooed, on down the road. I think it might be why we dont see him for a few days. Him seen with the bag that Fanny saw and all. The birth of the Ripper with the Black Bag legend.

[The Rookie Detective]

We know that Goldstein was seen walking hurriedly down Berner Street, but the question is... did Goldstein see Fanny?

RD