Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Do we? I've heard this claim a few times lately. Care to back it up?

What I meant was that she claimed that she went onto her doorstep at 12.45 which she said was immediately after hearing a Constable pass. Yet we know that Smith would have passed 10 or 15 minutes prior to that. She also said that she was on her doorstep nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00 and yet she claims to have gone onto her doorstep at 12.45 and doesn’t mention being on her doorstep before that.

How is this reliable information? We don’t even know how she arrived at her time. Fanny is useless as a witness.

Had Stride been standing a couple of feet back from the line of the gateway, she would have been standing in near darkness, putting her out of sight of everyone, including Schwartz and the man he said he followed down Berner St.

You are viewing this in terms of Mortimer and Schwartz being in sync. I’m not. I’m saying that when Schwartz saw the couple Fanny Mortimer was inside her house. By the time BS man passed she was standing in sight. She wasn’t glued to one spot.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can you quote Eagle and Lave saying they didn't see anyone?

Lave: I am a Russian, and have recently arrived in England from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at the time, and I noticed nothing wrong.

How many people did Lave see while outside? Zero? Five? It is indeterminate.

Levy is even more useless than Mortimer:

Daily New, Oct 1st - in the yard and street from 12.30-12.40

Evening News, Oct 1st - in the yard and street from 12.30-1.00

Evening Standard, Oct 1st - in the yard and street from 12.30-12.40

Morning Advertiser (London) Oct 1st - in the yard and street 20 minutes before the body was found for 5 minutes or more.

The Times, Oct 1st - in the yard and street 20 minutes before the body was found.

Woodford Times (Essex) Oct 5th - in the yard and street 20 minutes before the body was found and for around 5 minutes.


How can we use Lave to prove or disprove anything?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have no way of knowing if they were lying or not, do you? I only pointed out a possible reason why they may have done so. Are you claiming they were some how immune or incapable of lying?

Not at all but had that lying occurred and had it been coordinated, we would be in conspiracy theory territory - the merest hint of which usually gets jumped on here, so really, I was just wondering if that would happen regarding your suggestion.

The bottom line is that Stride did not have to be actively soliciting to be a Ripper victim as we have no way of knowing her response if approached by Jack.

We do indeed have a way of knowing her response if Schwartz's story is believed and BS Man is believed to be the Ripper - she goes quietly into the yard with him after having been thrown on the pavement. Yes, that's a terrible theory, but that's not the point.

I could do without the little snarky comment, thank you. What would prevent her killer from going through her pockets when she was dead? Would we expect to see evidence for this if he had done so? I don't know what that would be.

Some of the stuff found in her pockets would have been found on the ground or in the mud. Do you really think a thieving murderer could quickly go through her pockets without making a mess?

I agree that BS man is very un-Ripper like which is why I don't think he was her killer. But Schwartz can hardly be blamed for that as he never saw a murder take place. Regardless of how forced you think it is that "then Jack the Ripper came along" the idea was given credence by Swanson in his report.

No, things do not add up and I can't see any scenario where they do. All part of the mystery of this case.

Remove Schwartz and things might be easier to explain, not harder.

[Losmandris]

Oh wait...did you mean did they think the B.S. man was the Ripper? Don't know but a very interesting question.

c.d.

Basically yes. Or did they just put the B.S man incident down to some street hassle and believed that the killer/ripper appeared later on? I was always a bit more inclined toward the latter as Schwartz does not appear at the inquest.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Could Stride have been hired as the club's late-night post-closing "entertainment?"

And was it a collective cover-up after one of the members took a dislike to her presence and just cut her throat for good measure?


Just a thought


RD

Irish Times, Oct 1:

In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat. I should think she was 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women. There are some stables in there - Messrs Duncan, Woollatt, and Cade I believe - and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of these would be there though after about 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body About the club? Oh, yes, it would be open till 2 or 3 this morning. I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there. Both men and women go there. They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane. There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested.

The home which adjoins the yard on the south side, No. 38, is tenanted by Barnett Kenterich who, interrogated as to whether he heard any disturbance during the night, said - "I went to bed early, and slept till about 3 o'clock, during which time I heard no unusual sound of any description. At about 3 o'clock some people were talking loudly outside my door, so I went out to see what was the matter, and learned that a woman had been murdered. I did not stay out long though, and know nothing more about it. I do not think the yard bears a very god character at night, but I do not interfere with any of the people about here. I know that the gate is not kept fastened. The club is a nasty place." In this view Mrs Kenterich, who had come from the underground kitchen to take part I the colloquy thoroughly agreed, and both she and her husband, in reply to further questions, corroborated Heshburg's statement as to women and girls being taken to the club and as to the disorder which sometimes took place there.

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

[c.d.]

Not at all but had that lying occurred and had it been coordinated, we would be in conspiracy theory territory - the merest hint of which usually gets jumped on here, so really, I was just wondering if that would happen regarding your suggestion.

Believe me, the last thing I want to do is get involved in a club conspiracy. I was simply pointing out that it would be to the club's detriment to be associated with soliciting. But you also have to wonder how they determined that no soliciting ever took place near the club. Did they have a standing policy that every five minutes during a meeting someone would yell "soliciting check", "soliciting check" and every member present was required to run outside and circle the building three times as fast as they could?
The point being I would take what they said with a grain of salt.

We do indeed have a way of knowing her response if Schwartz's story is believed and BS Man is believed to be the Ripper - she goes quietly into the yard with him after having been thrown on the pavement. Yes, that's a terrible theory, but that's not the point.

My point was regarding the question of her actively soliciting" as opposed to her being there to clean or for some other purpose. Even is she were not actively soliciting we don't know her response if approached by a potential client.

Some of the stuff found in her pockets would have been found on the ground or in the mud. Do you really think a thieving murderer could quickly go through her pockets without making a mess?

Yes, money has a distinct feel to it. Simply reach in and grab it. I see no problem there.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What I meant was that she claimed that she went onto her doorstep at 12.45 which she said was immediately after hearing a Constable pass. Yet we know that Smith would have passed 10 or 15 minutes prior to that. She also said that she was on her doorstep nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00 and yet she claims to have gone onto her doorstep at 12.45 and doesn’t mention being on her doorstep before that.

There is no contradiction in any of that, and what she mentioned to a reporter and which of her words are paraphrased in a report are two different things. She may have told him...

I had stood at my doorstep earlier and listened to the singing from the club, but I was inside when I heard a passing policeman's footsteps. I then went back to the door to shoot the bolts but decided to stay at my doorstep for another 10 minutes or so before I finally locked up for the night.

We can't just assume that a couple of sentences in a report that paraphrases an unnamed witness, perfectly captures everything that witness intended to convey.

How is this reliable information? We don’t even know how she arrived at her time. Fanny is useless as a witness.

How is this reliable information? We don’t even know how he arrived at his time. Israel is useless as a witness.

You are viewing this in terms of Mortimer and Schwartz being in sync. I’m not. I’m saying that when Schwartz saw the couple Fanny Mortimer was inside her house. By the time BS man passed she was standing in sight. She wasn’t glued to one spot.

Inside her house she could hear Smith's footsteps.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Levy is even more useless than Mortimer:

Daily New, Oct 1st - in the yard and street from 12.30-12.40

Evening News, Oct 1st - in the yard and street from 12.30-1.00

Evening Standard, Oct 1st - in the yard and street from 12.30-12.40

Morning Advertiser (London) Oct 1st - in the yard and street 20 minutes before the body was found for 5 minutes or more.

The Times, Oct 1st - in the yard and street 20 minutes before the body was found.

Woodford Times (Essex) Oct 5th - in the yard and street 20 minutes before the body was found and for around 5 minutes.


How can we use Lave to prove or disprove anything?

Apart from the Evening News, all those reports have Lave in the yard and on the street in the 12:40 period. That is right when we could expect Stride to be standing the gateway, yet Lave appears not to have seen her. At about what time do you suppose she started standing in the gateway? Was it right after she was seen by Smith?

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is no contradiction in any of that, and what she mentioned to a reporter and which of her words are paraphrased in a report are two different things. She may have told him...

I had stood at my doorstep earlier and listened to the singing from the club, but I was inside when I heard a passing policeman's footsteps. I then went back to the door to shoot the bolts but decided to stay at my doorstep for another 10 minutes or so before I finally locked up for the night.

We can't just assume that a couple of sentences in a report that paraphrases an unnamed witness, perfectly captures everything that witness intended to convey.

No we can’t. Which means that we don’t know at what times she was and wasn’t on her doorstep with anything like confidence.

How is this reliable information? We don’t even know how he arrived at his time. Israel is useless as a witness.

You’re just confirming what I’m saying. We can’t be certain that Fanny went onto her doorstep at exactly 12.45 and we can’t be certain that Schwartz saw the incident at exactly 12.45 either. So we can’t use Mortimer in an attempt to discredit Schwartz.

If it’s so important that no one can corroborate Schwartz why isn’t it important that no one can corroborate Mortimer?

Inside her house she could hear Smith's footsteps.

And we can’t be certain that Mortimer was standing at the same location inside her house when she heard the footsteps that she was when the altercation took place.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Apart from the Evening News, all those reports have Lave in the yard and on the street in the 12:40 period. That is right when we could expect Stride to be standing the gateway, yet Lave appears not to have seen her. At about what time do you suppose she started standing in the gateway? Was it right after she was seen by Smith?

I won’t bother discussing things that assume exact timings and clocks all being accurate and in sync. Lave could have been back inside by the time Stride arrived.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

[I]

Believe me, the last thing I want to do is get involved in a club conspiracy. I was simply pointing out that it would be to the club's detriment to be associated with soliciting. But you also have to wonder how they determined that no soliciting ever took place near the club. Did they have a standing policy that every five minutes during a meeting someone would yell "soliciting check", "soliciting check" and every member present was required to run outside and circle the building three times as fast as they could?
The point being I would take what they said with a grain of salt.

It would only require members to arrive and leave at random times. Just on the night of the murder, we have Wess, Kozebrodski, Lave, Eagle and Diemschitz in that category.

Yes, money has a distinct feel to it. Simply reach in and grab it. I see no problem there.

You mean, you did a thought experiment and it worked out just as you'd expected.

A JtRF thread on the subject.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No we can’t. Which means that we don’t know at what times she was and wasn’t on her doorstep with anything like confidence.

So, the claim by yourself and others that Mortimer said contradictory things, has yet to be justified.

You’re just confirming what I’m saying. We can’t be certain that Fanny went onto her doorstep at exactly 12.45 and we can’t be certain that Schwartz saw the incident at exactly 12.45 either. So we can’t use Mortimer in an attempt to discredit Schwartz.

Your "we can't be certain of exact times" argument is a red herring. Exactness is not required. Had Mortimer gone to her door after hearing Smith pass, and not seen Stride standing in the gateway a few yards to her right at any point, is a problem for Schwartz.

If it’s so important that no one can corroborate Schwartz why isn’t it important that no one can corroborate Mortimer?

You seem to be forgetting Goldstein.

And we can’t be certain that Mortimer was standing at the same location inside her house when she heard the footsteps that she was when the altercation took place.

That means you believe Mortimer hearing the altercation and shout of 'Lipski' is a definite possibility, otherwise you must be certain she was not in a location that put her in hearing range, which would obviously contradict this "can't be certain" claim. It's true that we can't be certain, but if Mortimer heard those footsteps, and after locking up was preparing for bed and her room was downstairs-front, the chances are she would have heard the incident. She didn't though, and neither did anyone else.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I won’t bother discussing things that assume exact timings and clocks all being accurate and in sync. Lave could have been back inside by the time Stride arrived.

Or he might not have been. You're only prepared to consider possibilities that are compatible with what you already believe.

[c.d.]

Yes, money has a distinct feel to it. Simply reach in and grab it. I see no problem there.

You mean, you did a thought experiment and it worked out just as you'd expected.

Pretty much, yes. Just how many things do you think she had in her pocket? Three, five, ten, twenty? And were all those things indistinguishable from the distinct feel of money? I hardly think so. And her killer needn't have sifted through the contents of her pocket right at the time. He could simply have scooped everything out of her pocket all at once into his to be examined at a later point when he felt safe.

Those points all came to me with a thought experiment. Pretty cool, huh?

c.d.

[c.d.]

It would only require members to arrive and leave at random times.

But what if the soliciting (if indeed it took place) did not correspond to those times? They would not have known about it, correct?

c.d.