Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[c.d.]

BS man is a diversion to draw focus away from the club and a little anti-semitic slur thrown in for good measure then gets the club off the hook too.

Even if that is true, we don't know if it was intentional. Fanny's statements had consequences too. Were they intentional?

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another suggestion as to what happened that night. I’m not saying that this is exactly what did occur because we can never know but I’m adding approximate times as a guide. I’m also adding explanations. Whether it is liked or not it explains everything.

11.45 - William Marshall sees Stride talking to BSMan. Stride is trying to get rid of BSMan because he’s a nuisance. She says that she’ll see him another time but BSMan doesn’t believe her saying “you’ll say anything but your prayers.” They part company.

12.30 - Charles Letchford passes along Berner Street but he pays no attention to Stride and Parcelman who are standing talking opposite the club.

12.32 - PC. Smith passes on his beat. He sees the couple. As Smith passed the couple move on. Where to? Who knows?

12.33 - Joseph Lave exits the side door of the club and goes into the yard to get some air. He looks out into the street and all appears normal and quiet. He moves around the yard. Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep after hearing Smith pass. The street is empty.

12.41 - Fanny goes back indoors to perform some household task or because her husband has called to her. At around the same time Joseph Lave goes back into the club.

12.42 - Morris Eagle returns from taking his girlfriend home. He knows that the front door of the club is locked at around this time but he tries it as it’s not locked at exactly the same time every night. He finds that it is locked so he uses the side door seeing nothing unusual. James Brown goes to fetch his supper and Edward Spooner and his girlfriend stroll along commercial Road from the pub. They turn into Batty Street then stroll south. They stop at the corner of Batty and Fairclough by the Board School chatting.

12.44 - James Brown returns with his supper and sees the couple. Spooner tries to get her to come home with him but she says:”“No, not to-night, some other night.” The couple then walk up to Christian Street and stand outside The Beehive pub. BSMan enters Berner Street from Commercial Road with Schwartz walking a few yards behind him.

12.45 - Stride returns and begins to walk north on Berner Street. She sees BSMan approaching and ducks into the gateway hoping that she hasn’t been seen. Unfortunately for her BSMan has seen her and he pulls her out into the street and the scene is witness by Schwartz and Pipeman (who had just walked into Berner Street and stopped in the doorway of The Nelson to light his pipe). Schwartz and Pipeman flee west Fairclough Street.

12.47 - BSMan loses his temper and cuts Stride’s throat. He exits the yard and leaves the street (direction unknown)

12.48 - Fanny Mortimer comes back onto her doorstep and looks out before bolting her door for the night. She sees Leon Goldstein passing on his way home. As Goldstein passes along Fairclough Street Spooner and his girlfriend are kissing and so they don’t see him pass.

12.50 - Charles Letchford’s sister goes onto her doorstep before locking up for the night. She sees nothing.

12.55 - Fanny goes back indoors.

1.00 - Diemschitz returns and finds Stride’s body.

1.02 - Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky run along Fairclough Street passing Spooner and his girlfriend.

1.03 - Spooner goes to the kerb and when they return he asks Diemschitz what’s happened. Spooner returns with Diemschitz and Kozebrodski. His girlfriend follows on. Lamb heads out to look for a PC and Kozebrodski goes with him.

1.05 - They return with Lamb and Ayliffe. Ayliffe is sent for Blackwell and Eagle is sent to Leman Street.

1.06 - Smith arrives.

1.07 - Fanny talks to Spooner and his girlfriend who said that they had been around from before the murder (around 12.45) until after (when Louis passed) and they’d seen or heard nothing. Not surprising considering their location.

1.10 - Johnson arrives

1.16 - Blackwell arrives.

[JeffHamm]

BS man is a diversion to draw focus away from the club and a little anti-semitic slur thrown in for good measure then gets the club off the hook too.

We don't know that R.D.

c.d.

And the Lipski as an anti-semetic slur was Abberline's idea, not Schwartz's. Schwartz thought Lipski was shouted to Pipeman as his name, which we know was his original statement because the police started looking up all the Lipski families in the area based upon it. We also have the Home Office asking about the search for Lipski's, which is where Abberline informs them that he thinks Schwartz was mistaken and Lipski was actually directed at Schwartz as a slur.

So it is invalid to suggest that Schwartz added an "anti-semetic slur to get the club off the hook" because Schwartz didn't include an anti-semetic slur but a name. It was Abberline who introduced the slur idea .... so if one follows the usual argument that because Schwartz introduced an anti-semetic slur to get the club off the hook, then once we realise it was Abberline who introduced the slur then logically we are left with the conclusion that Abberline was trying to get the club off the hook!

Alternatively, we might then decide that perhaps the conclusion that the person who introduces Lipski as a slur is trying to get the club off the hook doesn't really follow. And in that case we have to accept that even if Schwartz was the one to introduce it the conclusion is just as invalid as what actually seems to have happened (Abberline is the source of "Lipski = slur at Schwartz").

Basically, the whole idea of Lipski as evidence of Schwartz aiding the club falls apart when one keeps track of the source of the Lipski was a slur idea, which we know was Abberline, not Schwartz.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think that it’s also worth pointing out this snippet found by Debra Arif which clearly shows the insult ‘Lipski’ being used by. Jew toward a Jew. How likely is it that Debra found the only example ever spoken? Or was it in fairly general use? Yes, perhaps mostly by Gentiles toward Jews but not always.

[Sunny Delight]

And the Lipski as an anti-semetic slur was Abberline's idea, not Schwartz's. Schwartz thought Lipski was shouted to Pipeman as his name, which we know was his original statement because the police started looking up all the Lipski families in the area based upon it. We also have the Home Office asking about the search for Lipski's, which is where Abberline informs them that he thinks Schwartz was mistaken and Lipski was actually directed at Schwartz as a slur.

So it is invalid to suggest that Schwartz added an "anti-semetic slur to get the club off the hook" because Schwartz didn't include an anti-semetic slur but a name. It was Abberline who introduced the slur idea .... so if one follows the usual argument that because Schwartz introduced an anti-semetic slur to get the club off the hook, then once we realise it was Abberline who introduced the slur then logically we are left with the conclusion that Abberline was trying to get the club off the hook!

Alternatively, we might then decide that perhaps the conclusion that the person who introduces Lipski as a slur is trying to get the club off the hook doesn't really follow. And in that case we have to accept that even if Schwartz was the one to introduce it the conclusion is just as invalid as what actually seems to have happened (Abberline is the source of "Lipski = slur at Schwartz").

Basically, the whole idea of Lipski as evidence of Schwartz aiding the club falls apart when one keeps track of the source of the Lipski was a slur idea, which we know was Abberline, not Schwartz.

- Jeff

Drops mic!!!!

[JeffHamm]

Drops mic!!!!

Another good reason why I don't do karaoke, for which you should all be grateful!

- Jeff

[The Rookie Detective]

Another suggestion as to what happened that night. I’m not saying that this is exactly what did occur because we can never know but I’m adding approximate times as a guide. I’m also adding explanations. Whether it is liked or not it explains everything.

11.45 - William Marshall sees Stride talking to BSMan. Stride is trying to get rid of BSMan because he’s a nuisance. She says that she’ll see him another time but BSMan doesn’t believe her saying “you’ll say anything but your prayers.” They part company.

12.30 - Charles Letchford passes along Berner Street but he pays no attention to Stride and Parcelman who are standing talking opposite the club.

12.32 - PC. Smith passes on his beat. He sees the couple. As Smith passed the couple move on. Where to? Who knows?

12.33 - Joseph Lave exits the side door of the club and goes into the yard to get some air. He looks out into the street and all appears normal and quiet. He moves around the yard. Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep after hearing Smith pass. The street is empty.

12.41 - Fanny goes back indoors to perform some household task or because her husband has called to her. At around the same time Joseph Lave goes back into the club.

12.42 - Morris Eagle returns from taking his girlfriend home. He knows that the front door of the club is locked at around this time but he tries it as it’s not locked at exactly the same time every night. He finds that it is locked so he uses the side door seeing nothing unusual. James Brown goes to fetch his supper and Edward Spooner and his girlfriend stroll along commercial Road from the pub. They turn into Batty Street then stroll south. They stop at the corner of Batty and Fairclough by the Board School chatting.

12.44 - James Brown returns with his supper and sees the couple. Spooner tries to get her to come home with him but she says:”“No, not to-night, some other night.” The couple then walk up to Christian Street and stand outside The Beehive pub. BSMan enters Berner Street from Commercial Road with Schwartz walking a few yards behind him.

12.45 - Stride returns and begins to walk north on Berner Street. She sees BSMan approaching and ducks into the gateway hoping that she hasn’t been seen. Unfortunately for her BSMan has seen her and he pulls her out into the street and the scene is witness by Schwartz and Pipeman (who had just walked into Berner Street and stopped in the doorway of The Nelson to light his pipe). Schwartz and Pipeman flee west Fairclough Street.

12.47 - BSMan loses his temper and cuts Stride’s throat. He exits the yard and leaves the street (direction unknown)

12.48 - Fanny Mortimer comes back onto her doorstep and looks out before bolting her door for the night. She sees Leon Goldstein passing on his way home. As Goldstein passes along Fairclough Street Spooner and his girlfriend are kissing and so they don’t see him pass.

12.50 - Charles Letchford’s sister goes onto her doorstep before locking up for the night. She sees nothing.

12.55 - Fanny goes back indoors.

1.00 - Diemschitz returns and finds Stride’s body.

1.02 - Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky run along Fairclough Street passing Spooner and his girlfriend.

1.03 - Spooner goes to the kerb and when they return he asks Diemschitz what’s happened. Spooner returns with Diemschitz and Kozebrodski. His girlfriend follows on. Lamb heads out to look for a PC and Kozebrodski goes with him.

1.05 - They return with Lamb and Ayliffe. Ayliffe is sent for Blackwell and Eagle is sent to Leman Street.

1.06 - Smith arrives.

1.07 - Fanny talks to Spooner and his girlfriend who said that they had been around from before the murder (around 12.45) until after (when Louis passed) and they’d seen or heard nothing. Not surprising considering their location.

1.10 - Johnson arrives

1.16 - Blackwell arrives.

With utmost respect; this particular sequence above is a convoluted mess.


The following 2 scenarios are more simplified versions that achieve the same thing...


12.42am - After having been seen by Pc Smith and having observed Eagle walk into the yard, Parcelman and Stride walk over to the gateway and stand out of sight.

12.43am - Parcelman pulls Stride backward by her scarf, drags her to the floor and savagely cuts her throat in a bid to decapitate.

12.44am - Parcelman walks away and heads past Mortimer's house before slipping down the alleyway into BackChurch Lane. Mortimer hears him passing her door.

12.45am - Mortimer is at her door but can't see anyone. Stride is already dead and out of sight in the dark of the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street

1am - Stride is found



OR


12.42am - as above but with Parcelman leaving Stride alive and either going into the club (he's Lave) OR he walks north past Mortimer just as Stride walks into the yard and out of sight. She stands there waiting for someone.


12.43am - Mortimer comes to her door

12.53am - an unidentified man joins Stride either by coming out of the club OR from one of the cottages in the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street and is observed by Mortimer.
Goldstein walks past the entrance to the yard just as Stride is being murdered by the man who joined her just a couple of minutes earlier. Goldstein sees the killer and walks hurriedly away. He recognises the killer as a club member; possibly Lave.

12.56am - Mortimer goes inside.


1am - Stride is found


Either way, the key point is that Mortimer never sees Stride

[Herlock Sholmes]

With utmost respect; this particular sequence above is a convoluted mess.


The following 2 scenarios are more simplified versions that achieve the same thing...


12.42am - After having been seen by Pc Smith and having observed Eagle walk into the yard, Parcelman and Stride walk over to the gateway and stand out of sight.

12.43am - Parcelman pulls Stride backward by her scarf, drags her to the floor and savagely cuts her throat in a bid to decapitate.

12.44am - Parcelman walks away and heads past Mortimer's house before slipping down the alleyway into BackChurch Lane. Mortimer hears him passing her door.

12.45am - Mortimer is at her door but can't see anyone. Stride is already dead and out of sight in the dark of the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street

1am - Stride is found

This scenario then has both Eagle and Levy not seeing two people standing feet away out in the open across from the club. If Smith could see them why couldn’t they?

Why would Parcelman watch Eagle going into the yard and think “that’s a great place to commit a murder. People walking around, punters ready to go home…ideal.”


OR


12.42am - as above but with Parcelman leaving Stride alive and either going into the club (he's Lave) OR he walks north past Mortimer just as Stride walks into the yard and out of sight. She stands there waiting for someone.


12.43am - Mortimer comes to her door

12.53am - an unidentified man joins Stride either by coming out of the club OR from one of the cottages in the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street and is observed by Mortimer.
Goldstein walks past the entrance to the yard just as Stride is being murdered by the man who joined her just a couple of minutes earlier. Goldstein sees the killer and walks hurriedly away. He recognises the killer as a club member; possibly Lave.
12.56am - Mortimer goes inside.


1am - Stride is found


Either way, the key point is that Mortimer never sees Stride

My scenario explains everything and leaves nothing out. That said, I still make no claim that this must have been precisely what occurred as other variations could also explain what occurred without us being able to corroborate in 2024. It gives a possible explanation for why the murder occurred where it did. It gives a possible explanation of who the mysterious couple where that spoke to Fanny and why they said what they apparently did . It gives a possible description of Stride’s movements without her having to remain across the street invisible to Lave and Eagle. It incorporates Letchford’s sister. It explains why Spooner didn’t see Goldstein who undoubtedly headed along Fairclough Street.

All through this thread and others we have had people picking minor faults with every proposed scenario and now I’ve come up with one that incorporates everything you describe it as a mess.

What we do know is that there was no cover-up, plot, conspiracy, false witness or anything like that. It’s long past time all of that was put to bed. Can we really believe that Parcelman stood with Stride for 10 minutes across from the club unseen by Schwartz, Lave or Eagle and only then decided that Dutfield’s Yard made an ideal spot for a murder? And of course neither of your scenarios account for Schwartz who was undoubtedly there and saw the incident as claimed. Any suggestion that Schwartz lied and placed himself at the scene of a murder can and should be consigned to the dustbin. Worse still, any insane suggestion that he was the murderer and admitted to being there when he had no need to, needs to be consigned to the dustbin and then burned.

Liz Stride was killed by BSMan, whoever he was. A simple murder.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So you agree that the three sounds Stride made were not very loud sounds, since it is recorded that way. And isn't the volume of the sounds the most critical aspect, whether they be called screams, yells, shouts, calls, or whatnot. In the end, it is whether or not they were very loud sounds, and since they are recorded as being not very loud, we have our answer - don't we?

- Jeff

An answer to the question; How loud is a not very loud scream? No, we don't have our answer.

[JeffHamm]

With utmost respect; this particular sequence above is a convoluted mess.


The following 2 scenarios are more simplified versions that achieve the same thing...


12.42am - After having been seen by Pc Smith and having observed Eagle walk into the yard, Parcelman and Stride walk over to the gateway and stand out of sight.

12.43am - Parcelman pulls Stride backward by her scarf, drags her to the floor and savagely cuts her throat in a bid to decapitate.

12.44am - Parcelman walks away and heads past Mortimer's house before slipping down the alleyway into BackChurch Lane. Mortimer hears him passing her door.

12.45am - Mortimer is at her door but can't see anyone. Stride is already dead and out of sight in the dark of the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street

1am - Stride is found



OR


12.42am - as above but with Parcelman leaving Stride alive and either going into the club (he's Lave) OR he walks north past Mortimer just as Stride walks into the yard and out of sight. She stands there waiting for someone.


12.43am - Mortimer comes to her door

12.53am - an unidentified man joins Stride either by coming out of the club OR from one of the cottages in the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street and is observed by Mortimer.
Goldstein walks past the entrance to the yard just as Stride is being murdered by the man who joined her just a couple of minutes earlier. Goldstein sees the killer and walks hurriedly away. He recognises the killer as a club member; possibly Lave.

12.56am - Mortimer goes inside.


1am - Stride is found


Either way, the key point is that Mortimer never sees Stride

You've left out Schwartz though, and you have Fanny outside for 12 minutes, rather than the 10 she says. Schwartz doesn't see Stride with anyone, but sees Broad Shoulders ahead of him as they both come from Commercial towards the gate. So Schwartz and B.S. have to come down after PC Smith has passed around 12:42, but PC Smith has to have exited before Schwartz and B.S. come down, and that would require about a minute. Since B.S. is not going to assault Stride while she's with another man (Parcelman), that just leaves your 2nd possibility. Given the events described by Schwartz would require about 90s (to the point he exits Berner Street to the south on Fairclough), and given Fanny comes out after B.S. walks past her house, then
12:42 PC Smith passes
12:43 PC Smith exits Berner Street while Stride crosses to the gate and Parcelman leaves
12:43 Schwartz and B.S. enter Berner (just after PC Smith has turned east on Commercial)
12:44:30 Schwartz exits Berner to the south
12:44:45 B.S. has killed Stride
12:45:45 B.S. has walked by Fanny's house and exited via Commercial (less time if he exits via the ally as you suggest)
12:46 Fanny emerges

Those 2 extra minutes assigned to Fanny's vigil would be the roughly 2 minutes required for the events described by Schwartz to occur and still make sense of things in the way you propose without having to suggest that for reasons nobody has ever been able to adequately explain, Schwartz makes up some story about seeing Stride being assaulted.

In short, there's nothing in what you describe that can't simply include Schwartz as yet another witness to events of that night.

Obviously, there is room to suggest widening some of the time between events, like PC Smith's exiting and Schwartz and B.S. entering Berner, but that just makes things easier and would only shift Fanny's appearance by such a short amount that it would make no difference, particularly as she's likely to have been on her doorstep for less than the 10 minutes she estimated (based upon research of people's estimation of durations, which I've presented a fair few times before).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

An answer to the question; How loud is not very loud scream? No, we don't have our answer.

But by that token, how loud is a scream? How loud is loud? Any of these questions are unanswerable by your view, so the information we have in terms of statements about screams or "not very loud" are meaningless and we can only go by the consequences, which are that it was not loud enough for anyone inside a building to take notice.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But by that token, how loud is a scream? How loud is loud? Any of these questions are unanswerable by your view, so the information we have in terms of statements about screams or "not very loud" are meaningless and we can only go by the consequences, which are that it was not loud enough for anyone inside a building to take notice.

- Jeff

The loudness is relative to normal human communication - talking. If we can just define a not very loud scream as that which is just below the audibility of anyone in the vicinity, to answer the question as to why it went unheard, then you must be wondering why there is so much effort to made to claim that these screams weren't actually screams. That it was a bad translation, or a poor choice of word. You made the suggestion that these screams might have been "yells, shouts, calls, or whatnot". Why did you do that? Was it because the notion of a woman screaming at the gateway, going unnoticed by anyone inside or on the street, clashes with our intuitions?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Any suggestion that Schwartz lied and placed himself at the scene of a murder can and should be consigned to the dustbin. Worse still, any insane suggestion that he was the murderer and admitted to being there when he had no need to, needs to be consigned to the dustbin and then burned.

We have a report that suggests Schwartz was pursued for a very good reason, unlike the flimsy reasons normally suggested for Pipeman running. You ignore this evidence when asserting that Schwartz had no need to go to the police.

[JeffHamm]

The loudness is relative to normal human communication - talking. If we can just define a not very loud scream as that which is just below the audibility of anyone in the vicinity, to answer the question as to why it went unheard, then you must be wondering why there is so much effort to made to claim that these screams weren't actually screams. That it was a bad translation, or a poor choice of word. You made the suggestion that these screams might have been "yells, shouts, calls, or whatnot". Why did you do that? Was it because the notion of a woman screaming at the gateway, going unnoticed by anyone inside or on the street, clashes with our intuitions?

I did that because a rose by any other name would smell as sweet type thing. A scream does not have to be ear piercing, but one may refer to a noise people make ("ahhh" or "eeek" or however one writes a scream in text) as a scream regardless of its volume. So some screams might be very loud, some are only loud, and some are not very loud. We have one of the latter in evidence.

A different witness might choose a different word for that same sound, such as a yell, shout, call, etc, but the sound itself is the same sound, just by another name. While the word scream, when left unqualified, tends to suggest the volume of the sound to be on the "loud" end, when it is qualified (as in "not very loud") then we know this particular scream is not at the loud end. Because it is qualified with respect to the volume it doesn't enable one to say "it was loud because it was a scream" and to then go on to describe situations with "loud" or "very loud" screams because to do so is against the statements we have. Such descriptions do not describe the event as recorded.

The suggestion that scream may be a poor word choice, or poor translation, is getting at the same underlying idea because some are insisting that a "scream" has to be of the sort you conjure up - a woman screaming at the gateway; but that leaves out the important bit of recorded information about the volume. If you ask because "a woman screaming not very loudly at the gateway going unnoticed by anyone inside or on the street, clashes with our intuitions", I would have said "no, since it's not very loud it could easily go unnoticed by someone inside, and given that Pipeman then emerges from his doorway, it looks like it wasn't unnoticed by him, who was as far as we know the only other person in the street at that time."

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Fair enough.

The following does not seem to fit with other evidence.

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

It seemingly does not fit because we assume that the woman in question was Fanny, and that had she gone to her door immediately on hearing the policeman's plod, she would have seen Stride with a man. Is that necessarily true, though? What if the couple had stood further up Berner St than Smith recalled? Then Fanny might have seen the couple talking together in the distance, just as she might have caught a glimpse of the board school couple at the corner. Do we have to assume she would have put two and two together, on seeing Stride's body by candlelight? Fanny spoke to the board school couple, so maybe she thought another couple further up that dark street, had nothing to do with the murder. Perhaps Fanny did indeed go to her doorstep seconds after Smith had passed by, and our timelines are incorrect.

What I get from Fanny's reported statements is that she isn't saying that she saw a couple on the corner while she was at her door, but that after the murder she talked to a couple that said they were on the corner, and Fanny is reporting what they told her. I won't say that it's certain that she didn't see a couple on the corner while she was at her door, but that's how it sounds to me.

Even so, there's still the fact that if Fanny hearing what sounds like a PC passing seems to fit well with the idea that PC Smith passed right before she went to her door, then that raises the question of why Fanny didn't see Stride or Parcelman. I think that the most likely answer to that is that is that those two moved from where they were between the time that Smith passed and Fanny went to her door. Either because Fanny wasn't quite as prompt at getting to her door as she makes it sound, or she was rather prompt, but it didn't take long for Stride and Parcelman to move to where she couldn't see them.

You mentioned the possibility that Stride and Parcelman weren't quite where PC Smith thought they were, so if that's the case, then maybe Stride and Parcelman didn't need to move to be where Fanny couldn't see them. That is, they also weren't where she could see them when PC Smith saw them.

Another possibility is that what Fanny thought was a PC passing actually wasn't one, or at least, it wasn't PC Smith.