New to the forum but where's the knife?

[Guest]

hi Helen, thanks for putting up this interesting topic. I find the dicussion what trophies Jack may have taken with him an interesting one. There is much precident of serial killers taking jewelry and body parts, which this one did, and so i do wonder what else.
I would expect he probably could have well taken a knife though he probably would have formed an attachment to his own by then.

[Guest]

That said it does pose an interesting question, at that time the streets were flooded with police and vigilantees, eager to search anyone. It was a small area and putting ourself in his shoes walking around it would have been far safer for our Jack not to carry his big knife, or cleaver or whatever when he was out and about during the hunting phase, maybe he just carried something small like a clasp knife that wouldn't cause suspicion.

So it would have been much safer if he could have used Marys knife, so maybe he was opportunistic mutilator, and after killing her only the decided that knife was handy to do some mutilating with.

That said you could argue he wasnt bothered about carrying organs with bloody hands afterwards was he? but going back to a safe spot is a lot quicker than scoping out potential victims in busy streets.
Just a thought, which may explain some later possible victims i have an interest in such as the farmer assault.

[Parisi North Humber]

Hi Wiggins, I don't have a theory or even a suspect, I do however have lots of queries and until I can join the dots I will continue to be open minded. Wether Jack took her knife, used it "just for jolly" or it was at the crime scene and not mentioned by the police for possible strategic purposes I don't know. However I do think that the photograph of MJK 3 is angled down to show something of importance either in the fore or middle ground.

Helen x

[John Wheat]

Hi Wiggins, I don't have a theory or even a suspect, I do however have lots of queries and until I can join the dots I will continue to be open minded. Wether Jack took her knife, used it "just for jolly" or it was at the crime scene and not mentioned by the police for possible strategic purposes I don't know. However I do think that the photograph of MJK 3 is angled down to show something of importance either in the fore or middle ground.

Helen x

It's good to be open minded Parisi North Humber.

[Parisi North Humber]

Thank you John....I try my best.

Helen x

[Wickerman]

Hi Wiggins, I don't have a theory or even a suspect, I do however have lots of queries and until I can join the dots I will continue to be open minded. Wether Jack took her knife, used it "just for jolly" or it was at the crime scene and not mentioned by the police for possible strategic purposes I don't know. However I do think that the photograph of MJK 3 is angled down to show something of importance either in the fore or middle ground.

Helen x

This query of whether Kelly owned a knife appears to have some importance that has escaped most students of the case, is there a theory behind this question?

[DJA]

If that is a knife on her table,seems she did not reach for it.

Reckon Blotchy drugged her,leaving the door unlocked for Jack.

Hutchinson was a look out.

Mary's meal was most likely purchased from her landlord,same person who looked on as the police forced the door.

[Parisi North Humber]

Hi Wickerman, I don't have a set theory just that the knife or lack of seems important.

If Mary owned a general purpose domestic kitchen knife then it was either taken by somebody (important information in its own right) or the police deliberately didn't mention finding a sharp knife at the scene . I say deliberately omited as mention was made of other items of importance such as a man's pipe and burnt bits of clothing. So I believe finding a sharp knife at the scene of a knife related murder (especially such a horrific crime that was one of a series) would have warranted a passing mention, even if was just along the lines of "a sharp kichen knife was found in situ but was the victims own bread knife and was not connected with her demise".

However if her knife was found and the police witheld information concerning it then it could be because it could help identify a suspect, show a change in M.O. or possibly even have been swapped etc. I'm sure there are many more reasons why information or evidence in a murder case has been and still is witheld.

But as I say she may not of owned a knife at all and she sliced bread, peeled potatoes and cut cheese with another implement, it just seems to me to be unlikely.

Helen x

[Wickerman]

Hi Helen.

A general purpose kitchen knife wouldn't be sharp enough to make those cuts (eg: Kate Eddowes, John Richardson). You appear to be suggesting something like a butterknife, which is different to a breadknife, which would be sharper but most likely not something Kelly or her class would own. People of the streets generally bought their food like take-out today, or eat-in at the shop. Dealing with food at home was not so common, they didn't have food to store for another day. You suggested slicing bread, this implies she bought a loaf and brought it home, but no thats not how these people lived.

Taking Kelly as an example, if she was thirsty she would go to the pub, if hungry there were eatery shops, or fish & chip shops, food carts aligned the main street providing coffee or baked potato, boiled beef, mutton, etc. The point being they lived from hand to mouth, they ate out, bringing food home was hardly worth the trouble, the paltry amount of food they could afford would have been eaten at the shop. Kelly likely didn't even own any plates or cups, there was no need. We have a couple of examples of people taking a plate to the corner shop to have it loaded up with supper, then carry it home. These were the poor, but Kelly's class was lower than that, the lowest of the low, she apparently owned nothing but the clothes she wore.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Pall Mall Gazette 12 Nov does mention some bread in Kelly's room, in their description of the inquest jury's visit;

'The inspector, holding a candle stuck in a bottle, stood at the head of the filthy, bloodstained bed, and repeated the horrible details with appalling minuteness. He indicated with one hand the bloodstains on the wall, and point with the other to the pools which had ebbed out on to the mattress. The little table was still on the left of the bedstead, which occupied the larger portion of the room. A farthing dip in a bottle did not serve to illuminate the fearful gloom, but I was able to see what a wretched hole the poor murdered woman called "home". The only attempts at decoration were a couple of engravings, one, "The Fisherman's Widow", stuck over the mantelpiece: while in the corner was an open cupboard, containing a few bits of pottery, some ginger-beer bottles, and a bit of bread on a plate

No mention of a knife, nor whether the bread even needed one.

[jerryd]

We have a couple of examples of people taking a plate to the corner shop to have it loaded up with supper, then carry it home.

Yes Wick, and one example was a young man heading to McCarthy's just before midnight in July 1889 to fill his plate full of supper. I wonder how late McCarthy actually prepared/served a meal?

[DJA]

Yes Wick, and one example was a young man heading to McCarthy's just before midnight in July 1889 to fill his plate full of supper. I wonder how late McCarthy actually prepared/served a meal?

That was the same time at night that Blotchy and Mary Kelly were seen by Mary Ann Cox.

Given that Kelly was probably murdered around 3am,give or take an hour, and there was still food in her stomach .......

[DJA]

The Pall Mall Gazette 12 Nov does mention some bread in Kelly's room, in their description of the inquest jury's visit;

'The inspector, holding a candle stuck in a bottle, stood at the head of the filthy, bloodstained bed, and repeated the horrible details with appalling minuteness. He indicated with one hand the bloodstains on the wall, and point with the other to the pools which had ebbed out on to the mattress. The little table was still on the left of the bedstead, which occupied the larger portion of the room. A farthing dip in a bottle did not serve to illuminate the fearful gloom, but I was able to see what a wretched hole the poor murdered woman called "home". The only attempts at decoration were a couple of engravings, one, "The Fisherman's Widow", stuck over the mantelpiece: while in the corner was an open cupboard, containing a few bits of pottery, some ginger-beer bottles, and a bit of bread on a plate

No mention of a knife, nor whether the bread even needed one.

A few bits of pottery could have included a teapot,cups,etc.The reporter seems demeaning.

[Parisi North Humber]

Hi Wickerman, I don't suggest a butter knife but a more utilitarian knife and i also dont suggest that it had to be as sharp as the one utilised by her killer.
just the fact there was not a mention of any knife (when another victims butter knife was mentioned) strikes a mischordant note wh me.
So either there was no knife or there is a lack of disclosure regarding that knife. This of course only applies if one believes she would own a knife of some sort (which I do) she was not itinerant and even those who had no set place to lay their head had items listed that MJK did not.

Perhaps it boils down to wether one thinks she would own/have access to a knife.

Helen x

[jerryd]

Hi Wickerman, I don't have a set theory just that the knife or lack of seems important.

If Mary owned a general purpose domestic kitchen knife then it was either taken by somebody (important information in its own right) or the police deliberately didn't mention finding a sharp knife at the scene . I say deliberately omited as mention was made of other items of importance such as a man's pipe and burnt bits of clothing. So I believe finding a sharp knife at the scene of a knife related murder (especially such a horrific crime that was one of a series) would have warranted a passing mention, even if was just along the lines of "a sharp kichen knife was found in situ but was the victims own bread knife and was not connected with her demise".

However if her knife was found and the police witheld information concerning it then it could be because it could help identify a suspect, show a change in M.O. or possibly even have been swapped etc. I'm sure there are many more reasons why information or evidence in a murder case has been and still is witheld.

But as I say she may not of owned a knife at all and she sliced bread, peeled potatoes and cut cheese with another implement, it just seems to me to be unlikely.

Helen x

Hi Helen and Welcome.

There was no mention of a knife being found, but there was mention of a knife not being found.

Times
November 10th, 1888

There was no appearance of a struggle having taken place, and, although a careful search of the room was made, no knife or instrument of any kind was found.